9 ms·

HTC sues Apple over everything

138 points by taylorbuley 15y ago

Lewisham 15y ago
At this point, I find it unfathomable that Congress doesn't seem to have even noticed that the tech industry is imploding on itself with the ridiculousness of it all. Yes, they have lots of fish to fry right now, but if they can spend time arguing about incandescent light bulbs [1], surely there must be some time on the legislature to sort this mess out? The whole thing has turned from skirmish into full-on war in less than a couple of years. I can't imagine how much worse it's going to get. [1] http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58964.html http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58964.html
- pnathan 15y ago
  It'd be nice if Congress didn't stick its nose into the patent business until the dust clears and the best way forward is obvious to all. Given their recent history, it'd just turn into a fat-fingered partisan fight otherwise. :-/
  - barista 15y ago
    More than congress its Google who needs to realize that all its partner device makers are spending expensive resources on lawsuits rather than focusing on making cool android phones and its all because of some missteps that Google took to not properly license their OS. Why doesn't Google take responsibility of all these lawsuits? Afterall HTC, Samsung, LG and all other device makers are having to cough up money because they adopted android. Google should lead the charge here and not leave it to its partners to fight it out.
    - matwood 15y ago
      I think Google is leading the charge when it can with respect to Android the software. Many of the patents that Apple is going after other players with have to do with 'look and feel' of the hardware. In those cases I'm not sure Google has the standing to step in since they are not the ones who created the hardware.
      - barista 15y ago
        Really? Here's a breakdown of all the patents that Apple sued HTC for http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/apple-vs-htc-a-patent-breakdown/ http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/apple-vs-htc-a-patent-bre... Which of these you say are related to hardware look and feel?
        matwood 15y ago
        That's only HTC. Apple is also going after the Samsung tablet, which runs Android, using look and feel.
    - recoiledsnake 15y ago
      Why should Google lead the charge when HTC, Samsung pay zero zip nil dollars to license Android? It's they that are making buckets of money from selling Android phones, see the financials. Why is Google supposed to feel sorry for them? Google now has Motorola additionally to worry about. If they want patent indemnity, let them go to Microsoft, which provides patent indemnification to WP7 in exchange of $15 or so of licensing fees. (Same with desktop Windows vs. Linux).
      - barista 15y ago
        Google here comes up looking dishonest because it is the one that lured the so called "partners" into adopting androind claiming that it was free and now they are left to pick the tabs when apple and microsoft came after them. Of course going with Microsoft is an option but all these partners have been there done that. So they know better. :)
        cooldeal 15y ago
        >Google here comes up looking dishonest because it is the one that lured the so called "partners" into adopting androind claiming that it was free and now they are left to pick the tabs when apple and microsoft came after them I don't see anything dishonest about it. It was given away for free after all and the OEMs software usually sucks as a universal rule. They leveraged the Android marketplace and ecosystem, Maps etc. >Of course going with Microsoft is an option but all these partners have been there done that. So they know better. :) I don't know what that snark means, but the meme keeps getting repeated. OEMs have been making rich profits all along selling PCs (and from crippling them with useless software that makes them even more money, causing people to blame Windows for their faults). It's not as if Microsoft bought Dell and then clobbered the other OEMs(like Google seems to be in real danger of doing with Motorola).
        barista 15y ago
        Re. the snark: the OEMs went with microsoft but were disappointed because microsoft had a lousy OS especially as compared to iOS. Microsoft needs to do some work to gain their confidence back. WP7 looks much more competitive though. I have Focus. Love it.
    - barista 15y ago
      Wow! So many downvotes and not even a single convincing argument against? Gotta love HN.
- Bud 15y ago
  If you're going to raise irrelevant political issues like lightbulbs, at least place the blame where it belongs, which is not on "Congress" generally, but on a few Texas House Republicans (Jo Barton in particular), who are idiotically attacking the idea of having standards to increase energy efficiency. Placing the blame on Congress generally spreads the incorrect belief that all legislators and both parties are responsible for criminally stupid stuff like this. They're not.
  - steins 15y ago
    They are all responsible for placing the idiotic ban on incandescent bulbs to begin with. The federal govt has no business legislating the everyday minutiae of our lives.
    - Bud 15y ago
      You are sadly misinformed; apparently taken in by Tea Party propaganda. There is no "ban" on incandescent bulbs, and never was. The proposed standards, which were bipartisan, were intended to increase the efficiency of incandescents over time.
      - nitrogen 15y ago
        If there is a physical limitation to the amount of light that can be produced by a light bulb that uses black body emission to generate light, then a standard of efficiency that exceeds that physical limitation is an effective ban on generating light via black body emission. That's the way Congress loves to roll: they won't explicitly ban something they don't like (so they can save face with their constituents), but they'll do everything they can to make it untenable.
      - andrewflnr 15y ago
        In California there is. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/24/california-incandescent-l_n_813093.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/24/california-incandes...
  - dantheman 15y ago
- lallysingh 15y ago
  I'd like to point out that congress, as a whole, is a set of useless jackasses. I wouldn't hold my breath for them to do anything useful, about anything, ever.
  - billswift 15y ago
    Would that they were just useless. If they get involved, they will probably make the problem worse - after all, where do you think all the copyright extensions and the DMCA that have made the current copyright mess came from?
    - daeken 15y ago
      Warning: This is a huge tangent. I've been speaking out against the DMCA for the better part of a decade now (pretty hard not to if you're a reverse-engineer with a sweet tooth for DRM), but for once I'm going to speak in its defense. There are many, many things in the DMCA that I disagree with, but it also has huge benefits and is responsible for making possible many sites you use every day, such as Youtube. The safe harbor exemptions in the DMCA make it possible for a service provider to host user content without worrying about being crushed under copyright claims; if you deal with DMCA takedowns when they come in, you're A-OK. Likewise, the DMCA made clear many elements of fair-use around reverse-engineering, but we don't ever hear about this because the same clauses also make many other things illegal. The DMCA is really a mixed bag. I'd love to see most of it go away, as it's personally impacted me on many occasions, but it also has good -- essential, many would say -- parts.
- barista 15y ago
  If the industry waits for congress to sort it out it will be left waiting for years. Even the critical issues such as debt ceiling were down to the wire. Its the problem that the industry has to figure out within itself.
- roc 15y ago
  How or why would Congress notice, let alone come to the conclusion that anything is "imploding" ? From a non-techy perspective, nothing's really happening. Barring any Samsung Galaxy fans in Europe who saw the Tab delayed a few weeks. The practical impact of these sorts of things isn't immediate or obvious at all. And from the perspective of an IP professional, or someone who regularly follows IP happenings, nothing notably new is happening. These lawsuits have been lobbed back and forth from tech companies in hot industry segments for decades now. It heats up in highly competitive markets, particularly those enjoying rapid innovation simply because the IP concerns aren't well settled. Consider the earlier days of the web or the biopharma industry not so long ago. There was no shortage of IP gamesmanship then. The only thing particularly new here, is the level of coverage the tech press is giving the issue. Not least of all because "Apple", "Google" and "patent" are some of the most effective traffic generating keywords. None of this is to say the state of affairs is good, or healthy. I'm just saying that if you're not a tech enthusiast with little context for IP actions, there's really no reason you'd see the current smartphone situation as being particularly new, different or dangerous.
- spodek 15y ago
  Maybe the U.S. Congress sees law as one of the U.S. strong points and is using litigation as a way of bringing money into the U.S. Look at how much Taiwanese money will be spent on U.S. lawyers. Yeah, Apple has to spend money too, but it's not leaving the country. HTC's money is new money to the country. Joking aside, it would be a stupid and counterproductive policy, but probably better than what's happening. At least it would be a plan instead of a slow decline.
  - marshray 15y ago
    Right, why would Congress see any problem here? They're all lawyers, and it's the lawyers who are the real winners under the current policy.
- jpdoctor 15y ago
  > ... I find it unfathomable that Congress doesn't seem to have even noticed that the tech industry is imploding on itself with the ridiculousness of it all. You find it unfathomable that Congress, a body largely composed of lawyers, is not reacting to one of the greatest stimulus packages for lawyers? I would find it unfathomable if they changed the status quo.
  - mvzink 15y ago
    Indeed. That's what bothers me about the cries for patent reform: you are asking lawyers to let tech companies fire huge swaths of other lawyers. However, maybe the patent wars (like this HTC v. Apple one) will climb to such heights of absurdity that the economy actually will be affected. Then Congress (or someone) might have to take notice.
- r00fus 15y ago
  Considering who owns Congress through campaign donations and given the "nature" of the tech industry to disrupt other industries, I can't imagine that there is any sympathy for the tech industry's problems on capitol hill.
wccrawford 15y ago
Well good. The nuclear war has finally started. Once everyone is obliterated, maybe some real change can finally be made. Nobody is going to 'win' this war. Everyone who participates will be a loser, and at this point, nobody can afford not to participate. If there aren't some serious cease-fires real soon, this is going to be a bloody battle. In case anyone isn't following along: Imagine a scenario where every major piece of electronics equipment has been banned from sale in the United States.
- saturdaysaint 15y ago
  "Nobody is going to 'win' this war." This is an existential crisis for the smaller companies, but it's simply raising the stakes a little bit for Apple, who are making enough profit to afford endless litigation. The whole contest has numerous immediate benefits for Apple. Since they're making the lion's share of the money in smartphones, they win simply by raising the table stakes (i.e. litigation costs and court awards), which eat up a disproportionate share of their competitors' profits. It's not outrageous to think that their lawsuits pressured unprofitable Motorola to first threaten to sue other licencees and then sell to Google under extortionist conditions. I wouldn't be surprised if other struggling Android handset makers (LG?) moved to the fixed cost of Windows Phone 7 over the headache of Android-related litigation. Of course, the Motorola purchase incentivises profitable Android makers to hedge their bets on WP7, too. In the end, I think that Apple will be pleased if the product of their litigation is not to drive Android out of the market, but to create a phone market much like the tablet market - the iPhone and then a mish-mash of odd looking (to the average consumer) competitors.
  - marshray 15y ago
    it's simply raising the stakes a little bit for Apple, who are making enough profit to afford endless litigation No, Apple cannot overlook the possibility that the import and sale of some of their own products is banned in the US. If that happened as a result of their litigious adventuring, they'd have some real explaining to do to big investors. Look at what happened with Blackberry and NTP. The actual service (used heavily by the US Government and no doubt patent judges) came very close to being shut down. Probably someone gave the parties a good talking-to and forced the settlement. But in this case, a suspension on the sale of these particular shiny devices is not an existential issue for anyone except Apple's executives.
dman 15y ago
In the year 2015 will it be possible for newcomers to start new businesses? Patents seem to be reaching a point where companies are grabbing everything that can be thought of and everyone arriving late to the scene is accused of thoughtcrime. Someone more charismatic, persistent and eloquent than me needs to start civil disobedience against patents.
- gst 15y ago
  The Internet is global. Of course you can start a business. You just need to find a way to charge US customers from whereever you are (assuming that the credit card companies will block you if you ignore US lawsuits). Or you just ignore the US market and target the rest of the world. Actually that's what already has partially happened in the banking/broker sector: Try to open a broker account at one of the European brokers and they'll very likely tell you that they don't want to have you as a customer because you are US citizen or resident (just happened to me some weeks ago). Of course the reason for the brokers aren't patents, but US regulations that would be too much of a hassle.
  - dman 15y ago
    a) I found the comment about not being able to open accounts abroad very interesting, proving that runaway legislation does have an incurred cost. In the same vein one of the reasons George Soros gave for shutting down his fund was that the cost of complying with legal requirements was too high. b) Charging people remotely works for software but does not work for hardware because imports of your products can be stopped for patent infringement. c) I wonder if there is a precedent for company A going after your payment provider for enabling patent infringement.
  - rorrr 15y ago
    That's why bitcoins are important.
- rjd 15y ago
  Software patents don't exist in my country. I could be blocked from trading in the states, but thats not my market anyway so I couldnt' care less. I just read these threads because of morbid fascination. I truly don't understand the american psyche, its sooo foreign to me, it almost appears blood thirsty.
nl 15y ago
The thing about these patent suits is that they (almost) end up being settled out-of-court in a cross licencing deal. The terms of the deal are (almost) never public, which makes the patents seem more valid (the company can claim they have been licensed for huge amounts of money the next time they sue another company over them) . The court cases are usually just a way of changing the bargaining position.
- olliesaunders 15y ago
  The court cases are usually just a way of changing the bargaining position. What do you mean by this exactly?
  - wccrawford 15y ago
    The court cases are just a threat to get someone to go along with you. Just like the cold war, where nukes were used as a threat... They're only effective if you parade them around once in a while. If you don't remind people you have them, they forget.
  - nl 15y ago
    If you get a some preliminary rulings go your way it strengthens your bargaining position.
- tsotha 15y ago
  This. The end result of it all is going to be a cartel of mobile makers with cross-licensing agreements. They'll be able to keep competition out of the industry with patent litigation, so the price of mobiles will go up.
tjsnyder 15y ago
I'm honestly afraid this is going to turn into another ridiculous partisan battle in congress that ends up with a terrible solution because of infighting.
- marshray 15y ago
  Don't worry, a patent reform debate doesn't have the necessary television-appeal to turn into a real partisan battle. Unfortunately, the powerful interests it attracts may be even worse (for those seeking a non-terrible solution).
saraid216 15y ago
Does anyone have links to the actual papers?
napierzaza 15y ago
So at this point every company has dirtied its hands with Software patent suing. So I'm guessing pretty much nobody is about to try and stop the madness since it would make them seem as if they are hypocrites or whiners (these cases take forever to be resolved). Not sure any company out there is going to do much of anything to stop it.
divtxt 15y ago
Unfortunately, big companies with shipping products have every incentive to settle by cross-licensing & royalties. What we need is someone with deep pockets to form a patent troll and actually block shipping products rather settle. This will force big companies to lobby congress to fix software patents.
- divtxt 15y ago
  Haha - fooled you! If you tried this, you would probably fail! The government (lobbied by big companies) will convince the courts to block your injunction and force you to settle. You know, "risking national security by ruining the economy" or something.
  - marshray 15y ago
    E.g., NTP vs RIMM.
  - jrockway 15y ago
    HTC is a Chinese company, and Apple makes all their gadgets in China. This has very little to do with the US, except that we are the ones paying for the gadgets.
dgregd 15y ago
Majority of Congress are lawyers. Lawsuits like this help theirs colleagues to make more money. They are not going to cut the branch their profession is sitting on.
GHFigs 15y ago
And not a single word about the patents themselves.
- antrix 15y ago
  Here you go: http://thisismynext.com/2011/08/16/htc-sues-apple-patents/ http://thisismynext.com/2011/08/16/htc-sues-apple-patents/
jrockway 15y ago
Once you start a nuclear war, the only possible outcome is death to everyone and everything. I for one welcome our new gadget-less future.
cletus 15y ago
The problem with patents is fourfold: 1. Large companies, as a whole, like them. So Republicans like them; 2. Trial lawyers definitely like them (software patents are the Lawyer Full Employment Act in all but name). Many Congressmen are lawyers. The Democratic Party is basically the political wing of the American Bar Association (eg it's Democrats who oppose tort reform of any kind) so Democrats like patents too; 3. They're currently being wielded by largely American companies. If American companies were seen as being victimized by foreign companies it would be a totally different political landscape; and 4. America is such a large market that it affects both local and foreign companies anyway so there is limited benefit to setting up shop elsewhere. Personally I think (3) and (4) are the key to getting Congress to do something but I suspect that by the time either or both happen, it'll be far too late to fix. America, as a whole, seems beholden to "old world thinking" when it comes to intellectual property. Just look at the mess of lawsuits by the RIAA/MPAA (being tantamount to legalized extortion), copyright treaties negotiated in secret that want to put copyright infringement on the same level as terrorism, the Obama administration infested with ex-RIAA lawyers and so on. The collective ignorance with respect to IP by the courts, the executive branch, the legislature and most people as a whole is staggering and until that changes don't expect much to change.
- fpgeek 15y ago
  Given that patents in non-US countries tend to be weaker and harder to get, (3) is unlikely to change. On the other hand, if America's growth stays anemic while Asia (and to a lesser extent South America) keep growing (which seems likely), (4) will take care of itself.
antrix 15y ago
The original complaint & the actual patents if anyone is interested: http://thisismynext.com/2011/08/16/htc-sues-apple-patents/ http://thisismynext.com/2011/08/16/htc-sues-apple-patents/
shriphani 15y ago
Wasn't there that article about people not being able to focus? The result of this patent war is that you will now be able to focus on whatever you're doing. See, problem solved! Lawyers to the rescue !
6ren 15y ago
Earlier phone patents http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_of_the_telephone#Patents http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_of_the_telephone#Pate... and previous disputes http://www.sparknotes.com/biography/edison/section4.rhtml http://www.sparknotes.com/biography/edison/section4.rhtml
gcb 15y ago
playing devils advocate here. But when companies fight over patents, does't that mean that they are putting money on R&D that will eventually drive all the field forward in the middle term? even if at some cost on the short term... Apple and HTC are not /just/ patent trolls. ...I find my own argument hard to swallow, but i just thought i had to offer ONE counter point to one patent posts on HN :)

138 points by taylorbuley 15y ago

At this point, I find it unfathomable that Congress doesn't seem to have even noticed that the tech industry is imploding on itself with the ridiculousness of it all. Yes, they have lots of fish to fry right now, but if they can spend time arguing about incandescent light bulbs [1], surely there must be some time on the legislature to sort this mess out? The whole thing has turned from skirmish into full-on war in less than a couple of years. I can't imagine how much worse it's going to get. [1] http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58964.html http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58964.html

pnathan 15y ago
It'd be nice if Congress didn't stick its nose into the patent business until the dust clears and the best way forward is obvious to all. Given their recent history, it'd just turn into a fat-fingered partisan fight otherwise. :-/
- barista 15y ago
  More than congress its Google who needs to realize that all its partner device makers are spending expensive resources on lawsuits rather than focusing on making cool android phones and its all because of some missteps that Google took to not properly license their OS. Why doesn't Google take responsibility of all these lawsuits? Afterall HTC, Samsung, LG and all other device makers are having to cough up money because they adopted android. Google should lead the charge here and not leave it to its partners to fight it out.
  - matwood 15y ago
    I think Google is leading the charge when it can with respect to Android the software. Many of the patents that Apple is going after other players with have to do with 'look and feel' of the hardware. In those cases I'm not sure Google has the standing to step in since they are not the ones who created the hardware.
    - barista 15y ago
      Really? Here's a breakdown of all the patents that Apple sued HTC for http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/apple-vs-htc-a-patent-breakdown/ http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/apple-vs-htc-a-patent-bre... Which of these you say are related to hardware look and feel?
      - matwood 15y ago
        That's only HTC. Apple is also going after the Samsung tablet, which runs Android, using look and feel.
  - recoiledsnake 15y ago
    Why should Google lead the charge when HTC, Samsung pay zero zip nil dollars to license Android? It's they that are making buckets of money from selling Android phones, see the financials. Why is Google supposed to feel sorry for them? Google now has Motorola additionally to worry about. If they want patent indemnity, let them go to Microsoft, which provides patent indemnification to WP7 in exchange of $15 or so of licensing fees. (Same with desktop Windows vs. Linux).
    - barista 15y ago
      Google here comes up looking dishonest because it is the one that lured the so called "partners" into adopting androind claiming that it was free and now they are left to pick the tabs when apple and microsoft came after them. Of course going with Microsoft is an option but all these partners have been there done that. So they know better. :)
      - cooldeal 15y ago
        >Google here comes up looking dishonest because it is the one that lured the so called "partners" into adopting androind claiming that it was free and now they are left to pick the tabs when apple and microsoft came after them I don't see anything dishonest about it. It was given away for free after all and the OEMs software usually sucks as a universal rule. They leveraged the Android marketplace and ecosystem, Maps etc. >Of course going with Microsoft is an option but all these partners have been there done that. So they know better. :) I don't know what that snark means, but the meme keeps getting repeated. OEMs have been making rich profits all along selling PCs (and from crippling them with useless software that makes them even more money, causing people to blame Windows for their faults). It's not as if Microsoft bought Dell and then clobbered the other OEMs(like Google seems to be in real danger of doing with Motorola).
        barista 15y ago
        Re. the snark: the OEMs went with microsoft but were disappointed because microsoft had a lousy OS especially as compared to iOS. Microsoft needs to do some work to gain their confidence back. WP7 looks much more competitive though. I have Focus. Love it.
  - barista 15y ago
    Wow! So many downvotes and not even a single convincing argument against? Gotta love HN.
Bud 15y ago
If you're going to raise irrelevant political issues like lightbulbs, at least place the blame where it belongs, which is not on "Congress" generally, but on a few Texas House Republicans (Jo Barton in particular), who are idiotically attacking the idea of having standards to increase energy efficiency. Placing the blame on Congress generally spreads the incorrect belief that all legislators and both parties are responsible for criminally stupid stuff like this. They're not.
- steins 15y ago
  They are all responsible for placing the idiotic ban on incandescent bulbs to begin with. The federal govt has no business legislating the everyday minutiae of our lives.
  - Bud 15y ago
    You are sadly misinformed; apparently taken in by Tea Party propaganda. There is no "ban" on incandescent bulbs, and never was. The proposed standards, which were bipartisan, were intended to increase the efficiency of incandescents over time.
    - nitrogen 15y ago
      If there is a physical limitation to the amount of light that can be produced by a light bulb that uses black body emission to generate light, then a standard of efficiency that exceeds that physical limitation is an effective ban on generating light via black body emission. That's the way Congress loves to roll: they won't explicitly ban something they don't like (so they can save face with their constituents), but they'll do everything they can to make it untenable.
    - andrewflnr 15y ago
      In California there is. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/24/california-incandescent-l_n_813093.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/24/california-incandes...
- dantheman 15y ago
lallysingh 15y ago
I'd like to point out that congress, as a whole, is a set of useless jackasses. I wouldn't hold my breath for them to do anything useful, about anything, ever.
- billswift 15y ago
  Would that they were just useless. If they get involved, they will probably make the problem worse - after all, where do you think all the copyright extensions and the DMCA that have made the current copyright mess came from?
  - daeken 15y ago
    Warning: This is a huge tangent. I've been speaking out against the DMCA for the better part of a decade now (pretty hard not to if you're a reverse-engineer with a sweet tooth for DRM), but for once I'm going to speak in its defense. There are many, many things in the DMCA that I disagree with, but it also has huge benefits and is responsible for making possible many sites you use every day, such as Youtube. The safe harbor exemptions in the DMCA make it possible for a service provider to host user content without worrying about being crushed under copyright claims; if you deal with DMCA takedowns when they come in, you're A-OK. Likewise, the DMCA made clear many elements of fair-use around reverse-engineering, but we don't ever hear about this because the same clauses also make many other things illegal. The DMCA is really a mixed bag. I'd love to see most of it go away, as it's personally impacted me on many occasions, but it also has good -- essential, many would say -- parts.
barista 15y ago
If the industry waits for congress to sort it out it will be left waiting for years. Even the critical issues such as debt ceiling were down to the wire. Its the problem that the industry has to figure out within itself.
roc 15y ago
How or why would Congress notice, let alone come to the conclusion that anything is "imploding" ? From a non-techy perspective, nothing's really happening. Barring any Samsung Galaxy fans in Europe who saw the Tab delayed a few weeks. The practical impact of these sorts of things isn't immediate or obvious at all. And from the perspective of an IP professional, or someone who regularly follows IP happenings, nothing notably new is happening. These lawsuits have been lobbed back and forth from tech companies in hot industry segments for decades now. It heats up in highly competitive markets, particularly those enjoying rapid innovation simply because the IP concerns aren't well settled. Consider the earlier days of the web or the biopharma industry not so long ago. There was no shortage of IP gamesmanship then. The only thing particularly new here, is the level of coverage the tech press is giving the issue. Not least of all because "Apple", "Google" and "patent" are some of the most effective traffic generating keywords. None of this is to say the state of affairs is good, or healthy. I'm just saying that if you're not a tech enthusiast with little context for IP actions, there's really no reason you'd see the current smartphone situation as being particularly new, different or dangerous.
spodek 15y ago
Maybe the U.S. Congress sees law as one of the U.S. strong points and is using litigation as a way of bringing money into the U.S. Look at how much Taiwanese money will be spent on U.S. lawyers. Yeah, Apple has to spend money too, but it's not leaving the country. HTC's money is new money to the country. Joking aside, it would be a stupid and counterproductive policy, but probably better than what's happening. At least it would be a plan instead of a slow decline.
- marshray 15y ago
  Right, why would Congress see any problem here? They're all lawyers, and it's the lawyers who are the real winners under the current policy.
jpdoctor 15y ago
> ... I find it unfathomable that Congress doesn't seem to have even noticed that the tech industry is imploding on itself with the ridiculousness of it all. You find it unfathomable that Congress, a body largely composed of lawyers, is not reacting to one of the greatest stimulus packages for lawyers? I would find it unfathomable if they changed the status quo.
- mvzink 15y ago
  Indeed. That's what bothers me about the cries for patent reform: you are asking lawyers to let tech companies fire huge swaths of other lawyers. However, maybe the patent wars (like this HTC v. Apple one) will climb to such heights of absurdity that the economy actually will be affected. Then Congress (or someone) might have to take notice.
r00fus 15y ago
Considering who owns Congress through campaign donations and given the "nature" of the tech industry to disrupt other industries, I can't imagine that there is any sympathy for the tech industry's problems on capitol hill.

wccrawford 15y ago

Well good. The nuclear war has finally started. Once everyone is obliterated, maybe some real change can finally be made. Nobody is going to 'win' this war. Everyone who participates will be a loser, and at this point, nobody can afford not to participate. If there aren't some serious cease-fires real soon, this is going to be a bloody battle. In case anyone isn't following along: Imagine a scenario where every major piece of electronics equipment has been banned from sale in the United States.

saturdaysaint 15y ago
"Nobody is going to 'win' this war." This is an existential crisis for the smaller companies, but it's simply raising the stakes a little bit for Apple, who are making enough profit to afford endless litigation. The whole contest has numerous immediate benefits for Apple. Since they're making the lion's share of the money in smartphones, they win simply by raising the table stakes (i.e. litigation costs and court awards), which eat up a disproportionate share of their competitors' profits. It's not outrageous to think that their lawsuits pressured unprofitable Motorola to first threaten to sue other licencees and then sell to Google under extortionist conditions. I wouldn't be surprised if other struggling Android handset makers (LG?) moved to the fixed cost of Windows Phone 7 over the headache of Android-related litigation. Of course, the Motorola purchase incentivises profitable Android makers to hedge their bets on WP7, too. In the end, I think that Apple will be pleased if the product of their litigation is not to drive Android out of the market, but to create a phone market much like the tablet market - the iPhone and then a mish-mash of odd looking (to the average consumer) competitors.
- marshray 15y ago
  it's simply raising the stakes a little bit for Apple, who are making enough profit to afford endless litigation No, Apple cannot overlook the possibility that the import and sale of some of their own products is banned in the US. If that happened as a result of their litigious adventuring, they'd have some real explaining to do to big investors. Look at what happened with Blackberry and NTP. The actual service (used heavily by the US Government and no doubt patent judges) came very close to being shut down. Probably someone gave the parties a good talking-to and forced the settlement. But in this case, a suspension on the sale of these particular shiny devices is not an existential issue for anyone except Apple's executives.

dman 15y ago

In the year 2015 will it be possible for newcomers to start new businesses? Patents seem to be reaching a point where companies are grabbing everything that can be thought of and everyone arriving late to the scene is accused of thoughtcrime. Someone more charismatic, persistent and eloquent than me needs to start civil disobedience against patents.

gst 15y ago
The Internet is global. Of course you can start a business. You just need to find a way to charge US customers from whereever you are (assuming that the credit card companies will block you if you ignore US lawsuits). Or you just ignore the US market and target the rest of the world. Actually that's what already has partially happened in the banking/broker sector: Try to open a broker account at one of the European brokers and they'll very likely tell you that they don't want to have you as a customer because you are US citizen or resident (just happened to me some weeks ago). Of course the reason for the brokers aren't patents, but US regulations that would be too much of a hassle.
- dman 15y ago
  a) I found the comment about not being able to open accounts abroad very interesting, proving that runaway legislation does have an incurred cost. In the same vein one of the reasons George Soros gave for shutting down his fund was that the cost of complying with legal requirements was too high. b) Charging people remotely works for software but does not work for hardware because imports of your products can be stopped for patent infringement. c) I wonder if there is a precedent for company A going after your payment provider for enabling patent infringement.
- rorrr 15y ago
  That's why bitcoins are important.
rjd 15y ago
Software patents don't exist in my country. I could be blocked from trading in the states, but thats not my market anyway so I couldnt' care less. I just read these threads because of morbid fascination. I truly don't understand the american psyche, its sooo foreign to me, it almost appears blood thirsty.

nl 15y ago

The thing about these patent suits is that they (almost) end up being settled out-of-court in a cross licencing deal. The terms of the deal are (almost) never public, which makes the patents seem more valid (the company can claim they have been licensed for huge amounts of money the next time they sue another company over them) . The court cases are usually just a way of changing the bargaining position.

olliesaunders 15y ago
The court cases are usually just a way of changing the bargaining position. What do you mean by this exactly?
- wccrawford 15y ago
  The court cases are just a threat to get someone to go along with you. Just like the cold war, where nukes were used as a threat... They're only effective if you parade them around once in a while. If you don't remind people you have them, they forget.
- nl 15y ago
  If you get a some preliminary rulings go your way it strengthens your bargaining position.
tsotha 15y ago
This. The end result of it all is going to be a cartel of mobile makers with cross-licensing agreements. They'll be able to keep competition out of the industry with patent litigation, so the price of mobiles will go up.

tjsnyder 15y ago

I'm honestly afraid this is going to turn into another ridiculous partisan battle in congress that ends up with a terrible solution because of infighting.

marshray 15y ago
Don't worry, a patent reform debate doesn't have the necessary television-appeal to turn into a real partisan battle. Unfortunately, the powerful interests it attracts may be even worse (for those seeking a non-terrible solution).

saraid216 15y ago

Does anyone have links to the actual papers?

napierzaza 15y ago

So at this point every company has dirtied its hands with Software patent suing. So I'm guessing pretty much nobody is about to try and stop the madness since it would make them seem as if they are hypocrites or whiners (these cases take forever to be resolved). Not sure any company out there is going to do much of anything to stop it.

divtxt 15y ago

Unfortunately, big companies with shipping products have every incentive to settle by cross-licensing & royalties. What we need is someone with deep pockets to form a patent troll and actually block shipping products rather settle. This will force big companies to lobby congress to fix software patents.

divtxt 15y ago
Haha - fooled you! If you tried this, you would probably fail! The government (lobbied by big companies) will convince the courts to block your injunction and force you to settle. You know, "risking national security by ruining the economy" or something.
- marshray 15y ago
  E.g., NTP vs RIMM.
- jrockway 15y ago
  HTC is a Chinese company, and Apple makes all their gadgets in China. This has very little to do with the US, except that we are the ones paying for the gadgets.

dgregd 15y ago

Majority of Congress are lawyers. Lawsuits like this help theirs colleagues to make more money. They are not going to cut the branch their profession is sitting on.

GHFigs 15y ago

And not a single word about the patents themselves.

antrix 15y ago
Here you go: http://thisismynext.com/2011/08/16/htc-sues-apple-patents/ http://thisismynext.com/2011/08/16/htc-sues-apple-patents/

jrockway 15y ago

Once you start a nuclear war, the only possible outcome is death to everyone and everything. I for one welcome our new gadget-less future.

cletus 15y ago

The problem with patents is fourfold: 1. Large companies, as a whole, like them. So Republicans like them; 2. Trial lawyers definitely like them (software patents are the Lawyer Full Employment Act in all but name). Many Congressmen are lawyers. The Democratic Party is basically the political wing of the American Bar Association (eg it's Democrats who oppose tort reform of any kind) so Democrats like patents too; 3. They're currently being wielded by largely American companies. If American companies were seen as being victimized by foreign companies it would be a totally different political landscape; and 4. America is such a large market that it affects both local and foreign companies anyway so there is limited benefit to setting up shop elsewhere. Personally I think (3) and (4) are the key to getting Congress to do something but I suspect that by the time either or both happen, it'll be far too late to fix. America, as a whole, seems beholden to "old world thinking" when it comes to intellectual property. Just look at the mess of lawsuits by the RIAA/MPAA (being tantamount to legalized extortion), copyright treaties negotiated in secret that want to put copyright infringement on the same level as terrorism, the Obama administration infested with ex-RIAA lawyers and so on. The collective ignorance with respect to IP by the courts, the executive branch, the legislature and most people as a whole is staggering and until that changes don't expect much to change.

fpgeek 15y ago
Given that patents in non-US countries tend to be weaker and harder to get, (3) is unlikely to change. On the other hand, if America's growth stays anemic while Asia (and to a lesser extent South America) keep growing (which seems likely), (4) will take care of itself.

antrix 15y ago

The original complaint & the actual patents if anyone is interested: http://thisismynext.com/2011/08/16/htc-sues-apple-patents/ http://thisismynext.com/2011/08/16/htc-sues-apple-patents/

shriphani 15y ago

Wasn't there that article about people not being able to focus? The result of this patent war is that you will now be able to focus on whatever you're doing. See, problem solved! Lawyers to the rescue !

6ren 15y ago

Earlier phone patents http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_of_the_telephone#Patents http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invention_of_the_telephone#Pate... and previous disputes http://www.sparknotes.com/biography/edison/section4.rhtml http://www.sparknotes.com/biography/edison/section4.rhtml

gcb 15y ago

playing devils advocate here. But when companies fight over patents, does't that mean that they are putting money on R&D that will eventually drive all the field forward in the middle term? even if at some cost on the short term... Apple and HTC are not /just/ patent trolls. ...I find my own argument hard to swallow, but i just thought i had to offer ONE counter point to one patent posts on HN :)