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It's strange to see this upvoted on HN of all places. Some marxist inspired ramblings with no clear conclusion. Fact is that the free enterprise system works ve

It's strange to see this upvoted on HN of all places. Some marxist inspired ramblings with no clear conclusion. Fact is that the free enterprise system works very well when you let it work and this is backed by a lot of empirical data.

dgan 5y ago
I haven't noticed any Marxist rambling here. People have right to write their opinions, even if dreamful
- p2t2p 5y ago
  Actually Marxists are the best. They tend to express somewhat coherent viewes as Marxism have quite strong philosophical roots. Lots of others are just “views”, that is a pile of incoherent whims that should be realized somehow.
- olalonde 5y ago
  I was referring to the "class struggle" theme.
c54 5y ago
Common misconception, examples are the 40hr work week and banning of payment in scrip in the 1800s. Another example is that monopolies require legislation or they have the effect of “seizing up” the dynamics of a functioning marketplace and turning toxic. Semiconductor patents being made public and telecom copper being made open to use by other companies are both pretty well understood examples of legislation that helped bring about the computer era we live in now. Not free market in a pure ideological sense, but a kind of curated open market dynamic. Markets are created by governments and don’t just spring from anywhere whole cloth. Markets are useful for many many things but need to be gardened, in effect. In our current world labor “markets” are really not that at all— if a participant does not have the ability to withdraw their offer of labor then price signaling doesn’t work. I’ve been reading the book Freedom From the Market, it’s well-researched and a literature review of sorts. Would recommend.
- wallacoloo 5y ago
  > Markets are created by governments and don’t just spring from anywhere whole cloth. ok, then what of the cryptocurrency drug markets? those were created by govt? no. there’s so many instances of unorganized humans doing trade. markets are just a more organized form of trade, and goverment is but one way to achieve that organization.
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    I mean, they kind of were created by the government.
  - freeflight 5y ago
    > ok, then what of the cryptocurrency drug markets? those were created by govt? Indirectly yes, right now one of their biggest selling points is not being in the legal realm of government regulated markets. If the government were to legalize drugs/endorse crypto that dynamic would heavily change, the black variants of these markets would lose quite a big part of their appeal and thus the demand for them and ultimately their market share. > goverment is but one way to achieve that organization There has to be some form of authority enforcing rules, or else you end up with a very anarchistic form of "market" where everything goes. That "everything" ranges from mundanities, like making a "business model" out of cheating people, to selling people like property because when there's a buyer, who has the right the stop me from selling?
    - t-3 5y ago
      > There has to be some form of authority enforcing rules, or else you end up with a very anarchistic form of "market" where everything goes. That "everything" ranges from mundanities, like making a "business model" out of cheating people, to selling people like property because when there's a buyer, who has the right the stop me from selling? Your anarchy already exists, and they fight with lawyers to decide the winner. Businesses with exactly the vision you describe exist everywhere. Government enables this kind of trickery.
      - 5y ago
lordwarnut 5y ago
I believe that David Graeber was an Anarchist not a Marxist.
- orwin 5y ago
  Anarchists, like communists, have a marxist or post-marxist view of the society and its organization.
  - tremon 5y ago
    ...because if they had a capitalist view on society, they'd be called libertarians?
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    No, not all communists are Marxists and the predominant tradition, anarcho-communism, is not post-Marxist but derives from a different set of authors who opposed Marx during his lifetime. [1] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#Other_types_of_communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#Other_types_of_commu...
    - drcongo 5y ago
      Thank you. Some of the comments in this thread are so bizarre I have to wonder if it's down to US educational systems placing everything that's not Reaganomics into a basket marked "Communism BAD".
- sleepysysadmin 5y ago
  >I believe that David Graeber was an Anarchist not a Marxist. Anarchism can be capitalist or communism. Anarcho-communism for example. In a proper free market, the telephone poles would have 50 wires, most of which wouldn't be functioning. Afterall, how would anyone provide you internet? Without government regulation any startup has to put their own wires up. This leads to rats nests of wires. Tons of expensive wires being put up for customers you used to have. Free market obviously doesn't work, you must come in and fix that. Communism on the otherhand is misuse of people. Everyone must be employed full time in communism. In the USSR, there would be multiple cashiers you would have to go through. Just to ensure people have something to do. You also have to have government slaves. USSR had the gulags. China has the uyghurs. Vietnam has their slaves in forced labour centers.
EliRivers 5y ago
very well when you let it work When you make it work. They aren't free by magic; if the freedom isn't enforced and maintained, they rapidly become unfree, and that's what appears to be happening (or has already happened).

dgan 5y ago

I haven't noticed any Marxist rambling here. People have right to write their opinions, even if dreamful

p2t2p 5y ago
Actually Marxists are the best. They tend to express somewhat coherent viewes as Marxism have quite strong philosophical roots. Lots of others are just “views”, that is a pile of incoherent whims that should be realized somehow.
olalonde 5y ago
I was referring to the "class struggle" theme.

c54 5y ago

Common misconception, examples are the 40hr work week and banning of payment in scrip in the 1800s. Another example is that monopolies require legislation or they have the effect of “seizing up” the dynamics of a functioning marketplace and turning toxic. Semiconductor patents being made public and telecom copper being made open to use by other companies are both pretty well understood examples of legislation that helped bring about the computer era we live in now. Not free market in a pure ideological sense, but a kind of curated open market dynamic. Markets are created by governments and don’t just spring from anywhere whole cloth. Markets are useful for many many things but need to be gardened, in effect. In our current world labor “markets” are really not that at all— if a participant does not have the ability to withdraw their offer of labor then price signaling doesn’t work. I’ve been reading the book Freedom From the Market, it’s well-researched and a literature review of sorts. Would recommend.

wallacoloo 5y ago
> Markets are created by governments and don’t just spring from anywhere whole cloth. ok, then what of the cryptocurrency drug markets? those were created by govt? no. there’s so many instances of unorganized humans doing trade. markets are just a more organized form of trade, and goverment is but one way to achieve that organization.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  I mean, they kind of were created by the government.
- freeflight 5y ago
  > ok, then what of the cryptocurrency drug markets? those were created by govt? Indirectly yes, right now one of their biggest selling points is not being in the legal realm of government regulated markets. If the government were to legalize drugs/endorse crypto that dynamic would heavily change, the black variants of these markets would lose quite a big part of their appeal and thus the demand for them and ultimately their market share. > goverment is but one way to achieve that organization There has to be some form of authority enforcing rules, or else you end up with a very anarchistic form of "market" where everything goes. That "everything" ranges from mundanities, like making a "business model" out of cheating people, to selling people like property because when there's a buyer, who has the right the stop me from selling?
  - t-3 5y ago
    > There has to be some form of authority enforcing rules, or else you end up with a very anarchistic form of "market" where everything goes. That "everything" ranges from mundanities, like making a "business model" out of cheating people, to selling people like property because when there's a buyer, who has the right the stop me from selling? Your anarchy already exists, and they fight with lawyers to decide the winner. Businesses with exactly the vision you describe exist everywhere. Government enables this kind of trickery.
    - 5y ago

lordwarnut 5y ago

I believe that David Graeber was an Anarchist not a Marxist.

orwin 5y ago
Anarchists, like communists, have a marxist or post-marxist view of the society and its organization.
- tremon 5y ago
  ...because if they had a capitalist view on society, they'd be called libertarians?
- guerrilla 5y ago
  No, not all communists are Marxists and the predominant tradition, anarcho-communism, is not post-Marxist but derives from a different set of authors who opposed Marx during his lifetime. [1] 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#Other_types_of_communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism#Other_types_of_commu...
  - drcongo 5y ago
    Thank you. Some of the comments in this thread are so bizarre I have to wonder if it's down to US educational systems placing everything that's not Reaganomics into a basket marked "Communism BAD".
sleepysysadmin 5y ago
>I believe that David Graeber was an Anarchist not a Marxist. Anarchism can be capitalist or communism. Anarcho-communism for example. In a proper free market, the telephone poles would have 50 wires, most of which wouldn't be functioning. Afterall, how would anyone provide you internet? Without government regulation any startup has to put their own wires up. This leads to rats nests of wires. Tons of expensive wires being put up for customers you used to have. Free market obviously doesn't work, you must come in and fix that. Communism on the otherhand is misuse of people. Everyone must be employed full time in communism. In the USSR, there would be multiple cashiers you would have to go through. Just to ensure people have something to do. You also have to have government slaves. USSR had the gulags. China has the uyghurs. Vietnam has their slaves in forced labour centers.

EliRivers 5y ago

very well when you let it work When you make it work. They aren't free by magic; if the freedom isn't enforced and maintained, they rapidly become unfree, and that's what appears to be happening (or has already happened).