8 ms·

This reminds me of the simple brilliance of Socrates. He began from the premise that he knew nothing, and would ask all manner of simple questions building on t

This reminds me of the simple brilliance of Socrates. He began from the premise that he knew nothing, and would ask all manner of simple questions building on top of the previous answers. It wasn't long before he uncovered how little everyone else actually knew, but what separated Socrates was his honesty: he knew nothing and admitted it. Naturally, the established powers and polite society didn't find this to their liking. We all know how his story ended.

dotancohen 5y ago
> Naturally, the established powers and polite society didn't find this to their liking. We all know how his story ended. Socrates was sentenced to death not for exposing how little everyone else knew. The esteemed philosopher was sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people - like a fly - with badgering questions that would force the questionee into a corner. Today we call this method of exposing contradictions in one's mindset the Socratic Method.
- medstrom 5y ago
  Going by Wikipedia, it's not agreed why exactly he was executed, but you don't execute someone for being annoying. The official charges were impiety and "corrupting the youth". Probably some political groups felt threatened by the idea of lots of people turning to a different set of ethics or starting to distrust authority.
  - gruturo 5y ago
    > but you don't execute someone for being annoying Of course you do, you just wait until you have a more ethically "usable" argument than that, you build a solid case, then you have a mock trial and a fully expected conviction. It was as true 2500 years ago as it is today.
  - watwut 5y ago
    His students and friends took power once before and instituted dictatorship with help of Sparta (enemy city). Killed and tortured opposition, then were taken down in contra revolution. So yeah, "different set of ethics or starting to distrust authority" but no necessary in a nice way.
    - buu700 5y ago
      TIL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Tyrants#Socrates_and_the_Thirty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Tyrants#Socrates_and_th...
    - andi999 5y ago
      I don't remember Plato mentioning that :-)
- HeckFeck 5y ago
  Ah, didn't expect the venerable Meletus to show up in the conversation today. How's the weather in Athens? > sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people I see you're still certain of Socrates' motives. When you claimed he was 'corrupting the minds of the youth' and 'denying the gods of the city' you were simply repeating the charges laid at any philosopher who threatens the powers that be. If anyone asks too many uncomfortable but honest questions these days, in some societies you will still be met with death, though here we have a milder but still harsh punishment known as 'deplatforming'. But more to the point, if you are so certain of what you know, you could explain it and wouldn't find questions 'annoying'. Frustration justifies the case, because it means you really do know nothing but simply aren't honest enough to admit it.
  - lugged 5y ago
    Facts don't care about your feelings and the truth doesn't hurt points of view that are legitimate.
    - ben_w 5y ago
      I’m not sure what this has to do with an ancient Athenian philosopher being stoned to death for saying things other people didn’t want to hear, such as “I can’t possibly be both an atheist and worship false gods”. Care to elaborate?
      - lugged 5y ago
        Just a modern rif on the same statement made above.
    - notenoughbeans 5y ago
      Didn't expect a quote from Tom Macdonald when I opened HN this morning.
    - psd1 5y ago
      Maybe not, but opinions about how we should conduct our societies depend on feelings, and things that appear true but are subtly wrong can cause great harm.
- Grustaf 5y ago
  He was certainly very annoying, but his crime was misleading the youth, making them distrust authority.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    That was his charge. The actual "crime" has been disputed for about two and a half millennia.
  - bambax 5y ago
    No. That is a legend promoted by Plato. He was not making the "youth" (in general) distrust authority, he was going around telling the sons of nobility and highest ranking officials that democracy was a stupid idea and that they would be better off seizing power for themselves.
- watwut 5y ago
  > The esteemed philosopher was sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people - like a fly - with badgering questions that would force the questionee into a corner. It had more to do with revolutions in city just before, when two his students and friends worked with enemy to make dictatorship out of Athens. They killed and tortured quite a lot of people. Then it reversed. Now, he did not participated actively and citizens behavior during above was supposed to be forgiven anyway. It was miscarriage of justice. But, these events in combination with what his ideas actually were were closer to why they wanted him killed then general "asked too many questions". As far as they were concerned, he was actually dangerous. The yet other official reason was impiety, which despite sounding ridiculous to us, to them was important too.
- darkerside 5y ago
  And why do you think people found this so annoying?
  - lugged 5y ago
    *find And I dunno, ask my wife.
- alfiedotwtf 5y ago
  The Little Schemer is a wonderful book that teaches functional programming and Scheme by just asking the reader questions (aka the Socratic Method). Off putting to me initially, but now I'd love it if more books were like this!
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
  <<It wasn't long before he uncovered how little everyone else actually knew, but what separated Socrates was his honesty <<The esteemed philosopher was sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people - like a fly - with badgering questions that would force the questionee into a corner. The two are not mutually exclusive.
- bambax 5y ago
  > The esteemed philosopher was sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people No. Socrates was executed because he was associated with the worst rulers that the city of Athens had ever known, all former students of his, who notably went on to kill thousands of Athenian citizens (not enemies, strangers, or slaves), following the defeat in the Peloponnesian War. After the tyrants were killed and democracy was restored, general amnesty law was granted to anyone involved except the Thirty Tyrants themselves and their direct aides. However resentment, understandably, remained. > There was a lot of bad blood between the people of Athens and Socrates’ followers. That wouldn’t have been enough by itself. But the murder of between 5% and 15% of the citizen population in 404 must have pushed things over the edge. Imagine if Osama bin Laden, Timothy McVeigh, and Saddam Hussein had all had the same person as their ethics teacher: would you be very surprised if that person got harsh treatment from a jury? And would you then call that person a martyr? http://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2016/04/socrates-1-did-socrates-die-for-this.html http://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2016/04/socrates-1-did-soc...
  - nescioquid 5y ago
    Well, he was executed because when asked what punishment seemed just to Socrates, he said he should be given free meals (like the Olympic champions), rather than suggesting a fine of 50 minas. So Hemlock it was.
    - marcosdumay 5y ago
      Yeah, there's some people that when faced to what they believe is an injustice go all in and decide the world is entirely unjust and there's no point on defending from anything, because the result is already set. See Galileo for another example. I guess there's some platonic happiness in thinking you have it all figured out.
  - tk75x 5y ago
    > between 5% and 15% of the citizen population in 404... error 404: population not found
- twobuy 5y ago
  He was put to death for being a thinly veiled Spartan sympathizer. Not quite just for being annoying.
agumonkey 5y ago
social reflexes and egos are immense streams of hurdles in the way of knowing i like the term abandonment these days, drop your assumptions, drop your habits and try to see things as they are
- HeckFeck 5y ago
  It sounds simple but it really isn't. When trying to approach sacrosanct 'truths' from a clean slate, I've met torrents of emotional resistance. Yes, from others. But also inside myself. It is quite something. I wish I could spend my days wandering the marketplaces asking sincere and pointed questions, but I have to get back to work.
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    of course it's not a thing for daily activities, more about ability to accept it when you face big questions
taldridge 5y ago
I don't mean to be that person, but "knowing that you know nothing" is a contradictory statement.
- lordleft 5y ago
  Strictly speaking yes, but I think it is a poetic way of saying that Socrates was better attuned to the limitations of his knowledge, as opposed to most people, who believe they know things they actually don't know (what is the good, etc). As a result, Socrates is actually wiser than most.
hypertexthero 5y ago
I recently learned that there were two other maxims inscribed after the famous “Know thyself” at Delphi: “Nothing to excess”, and “Certainty brings insanity”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_thyself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_thyself
ycombinete 5y ago
Socrates was deeply ironic, and usually only played the fool. In very few (maybe all but one) of his dialogues is he actually less informed than the people that he’s talking to.

dotancohen 5y ago

> Naturally, the established powers and polite society didn't find this to their liking. We all know how his story ended. Socrates was sentenced to death not for exposing how little everyone else knew. The esteemed philosopher was sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people - like a fly - with badgering questions that would force the questionee into a corner. Today we call this method of exposing contradictions in one's mindset the Socratic Method.

medstrom 5y ago
Going by Wikipedia, it's not agreed why exactly he was executed, but you don't execute someone for being annoying. The official charges were impiety and "corrupting the youth". Probably some political groups felt threatened by the idea of lots of people turning to a different set of ethics or starting to distrust authority.
- gruturo 5y ago
  > but you don't execute someone for being annoying Of course you do, you just wait until you have a more ethically "usable" argument than that, you build a solid case, then you have a mock trial and a fully expected conviction. It was as true 2500 years ago as it is today.
- watwut 5y ago
  His students and friends took power once before and instituted dictatorship with help of Sparta (enemy city). Killed and tortured opposition, then were taken down in contra revolution. So yeah, "different set of ethics or starting to distrust authority" but no necessary in a nice way.
  - buu700 5y ago
    TIL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Tyrants#Socrates_and_the_Thirty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Tyrants#Socrates_and_th...
  - andi999 5y ago
    I don't remember Plato mentioning that :-)
HeckFeck 5y ago
Ah, didn't expect the venerable Meletus to show up in the conversation today. How's the weather in Athens? > sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people I see you're still certain of Socrates' motives. When you claimed he was 'corrupting the minds of the youth' and 'denying the gods of the city' you were simply repeating the charges laid at any philosopher who threatens the powers that be. If anyone asks too many uncomfortable but honest questions these days, in some societies you will still be met with death, though here we have a milder but still harsh punishment known as 'deplatforming'. But more to the point, if you are so certain of what you know, you could explain it and wouldn't find questions 'annoying'. Frustration justifies the case, because it means you really do know nothing but simply aren't honest enough to admit it.
- lugged 5y ago
  Facts don't care about your feelings and the truth doesn't hurt points of view that are legitimate.
  - ben_w 5y ago
    I’m not sure what this has to do with an ancient Athenian philosopher being stoned to death for saying things other people didn’t want to hear, such as “I can’t possibly be both an atheist and worship false gods”. Care to elaborate?
    - lugged 5y ago
      Just a modern rif on the same statement made above.
  - notenoughbeans 5y ago
    Didn't expect a quote from Tom Macdonald when I opened HN this morning.
  - psd1 5y ago
    Maybe not, but opinions about how we should conduct our societies depend on feelings, and things that appear true but are subtly wrong can cause great harm.
Grustaf 5y ago
He was certainly very annoying, but his crime was misleading the youth, making them distrust authority.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  That was his charge. The actual "crime" has been disputed for about two and a half millennia.
- bambax 5y ago
  No. That is a legend promoted by Plato. He was not making the "youth" (in general) distrust authority, he was going around telling the sons of nobility and highest ranking officials that democracy was a stupid idea and that they would be better off seizing power for themselves.
watwut 5y ago
> The esteemed philosopher was sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people - like a fly - with badgering questions that would force the questionee into a corner. It had more to do with revolutions in city just before, when two his students and friends worked with enemy to make dictatorship out of Athens. They killed and tortured quite a lot of people. Then it reversed. Now, he did not participated actively and citizens behavior during above was supposed to be forgiven anyway. It was miscarriage of justice. But, these events in combination with what his ideas actually were were closer to why they wanted him killed then general "asked too many questions". As far as they were concerned, he was actually dangerous. The yet other official reason was impiety, which despite sounding ridiculous to us, to them was important too.
darkerside 5y ago
And why do you think people found this so annoying?
- lugged 5y ago
  *find And I dunno, ask my wife.
alfiedotwtf 5y ago
The Little Schemer is a wonderful book that teaches functional programming and Scheme by just asking the reader questions (aka the Socratic Method). Off putting to me initially, but now I'd love it if more books were like this!
A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago
<<It wasn't long before he uncovered how little everyone else actually knew, but what separated Socrates was his honesty <<The esteemed philosopher was sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people - like a fly - with badgering questions that would force the questionee into a corner. The two are not mutually exclusive.
bambax 5y ago
> The esteemed philosopher was sentenced to death because he was deliberately annoying people No. Socrates was executed because he was associated with the worst rulers that the city of Athens had ever known, all former students of his, who notably went on to kill thousands of Athenian citizens (not enemies, strangers, or slaves), following the defeat in the Peloponnesian War. After the tyrants were killed and democracy was restored, general amnesty law was granted to anyone involved except the Thirty Tyrants themselves and their direct aides. However resentment, understandably, remained. > There was a lot of bad blood between the people of Athens and Socrates’ followers. That wouldn’t have been enough by itself. But the murder of between 5% and 15% of the citizen population in 404 must have pushed things over the edge. Imagine if Osama bin Laden, Timothy McVeigh, and Saddam Hussein had all had the same person as their ethics teacher: would you be very surprised if that person got harsh treatment from a jury? And would you then call that person a martyr? http://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2016/04/socrates-1-did-socrates-die-for-this.html http://kiwihellenist.blogspot.com/2016/04/socrates-1-did-soc...
- nescioquid 5y ago
  Well, he was executed because when asked what punishment seemed just to Socrates, he said he should be given free meals (like the Olympic champions), rather than suggesting a fine of 50 minas. So Hemlock it was.
  - marcosdumay 5y ago
    Yeah, there's some people that when faced to what they believe is an injustice go all in and decide the world is entirely unjust and there's no point on defending from anything, because the result is already set. See Galileo for another example. I guess there's some platonic happiness in thinking you have it all figured out.
- tk75x 5y ago
  > between 5% and 15% of the citizen population in 404... error 404: population not found
twobuy 5y ago
He was put to death for being a thinly veiled Spartan sympathizer. Not quite just for being annoying.

agumonkey 5y ago

social reflexes and egos are immense streams of hurdles in the way of knowing i like the term abandonment these days, drop your assumptions, drop your habits and try to see things as they are

HeckFeck 5y ago
It sounds simple but it really isn't. When trying to approach sacrosanct 'truths' from a clean slate, I've met torrents of emotional resistance. Yes, from others. But also inside myself. It is quite something. I wish I could spend my days wandering the marketplaces asking sincere and pointed questions, but I have to get back to work.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  of course it's not a thing for daily activities, more about ability to accept it when you face big questions

taldridge 5y ago

I don't mean to be that person, but "knowing that you know nothing" is a contradictory statement.

lordleft 5y ago
Strictly speaking yes, but I think it is a poetic way of saying that Socrates was better attuned to the limitations of his knowledge, as opposed to most people, who believe they know things they actually don't know (what is the good, etc). As a result, Socrates is actually wiser than most.

hypertexthero 5y ago

I recently learned that there were two other maxims inscribed after the famous “Know thyself” at Delphi: “Nothing to excess”, and “Certainty brings insanity”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_thyself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_thyself

ycombinete 5y ago

Socrates was deeply ironic, and usually only played the fool. In very few (maybe all but one) of his dialogues is he actually less informed than the people that he’s talking to.