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> Going into an Apple store and asking for (and buying) the computer that comes in the smallest box, which I had a good reason to want at the time > The person

> Going into an Apple store and asking for (and buying) the computer that comes in the smallest box, which I had a good reason to want at the time > The person who helped me, despite being very polite, also clearly thought I was a bozo and kept explaining things like "the size of the box and the size of the computer aren't the same". Of course I knew that, but I didn't want to say something like "I design CPUs. I understand the difference between the size of the box the computer comes and in the size of the computer and I really want the one that comes in the smallest box", but just saying the last bit without establishing any kind of authority didn't convince the person > I eventually asked them to humor me and just bring out the boxes for the various laptop models so I could see the boxes, which they did, despite clearly thinking that my decision making process made no sense Oh c'mon, that's not fair. You have to tell us what the goal was. :) I'm super curious what a CPU designer wanted with the "laptop that came in the smallest box." Perhaps smallest box = smallest laptop = they wanted to study the form factor. But does the smallest laptop really come in the smallest box? And did the results of this experiment influence your future CPU design decisions? I feel like this arc deserves its own page.

Ensorceled 5y ago
I have to say, this example did make me switch my view of the author from some one who wasn't afraid to ask the "stupid" questions to being either a deliberately "just asking questions" asshole who likes to fuck with people or, to be more charitable, someone with a bit of a spectrum disorder.
- MrQuincle 5y ago
  I think it's better to be a bit more charitable here indeed. I also found it striking how the post is emphasizing how important transparency in asking questions is which might or might not reveal the intelectual qualities of the person asking, but then failing to be that transparent towards both the clerk and the reader of the blog post about the internal thought process. If one would like people to learn, enlighten them. :-)
  - Ensorceled 5y ago
    I have encountered both, I'm sort of leaning towards being charitable since the "just asking questions" crowd tends not to write articles about their behaviour! That lack of transparency seems to be a theme. I have difficulty with blood draws as well and I have never encountered a health care professional that didn't immediately switch to "ok, which arm is usually best" mode.
    - wccrawford 5y ago
      I've seen people getting a blood draw that the nurse wasn't willing to listen to. They'd tell them what usually happens, and how it goes best, and the nurse would ignore them. In the end, every single one of the patients was correct. Anyone who typically had problems with blood draws knew their problems well. Yes, most nurses listen. But there are enough out there that don't that I've seen it multiple times. I've said nurses, but I don't actually know their professions.
      - Ensorceled 5y ago
        > I've seen people getting a blood draw that the nurse wasn't willing to listen to. They'd tell them what usually happens, and how it goes best, and the nurse would ignore them. Fair, it could just be my experience as a middle aged, white male coming into play here.
        nzealand 5y ago
        Curiously, the best way I found to get past mental roadblocks, is to simply ask questions. I ended up with hundreds of parking tickets, for all different makes and models of cars. I quickly learned you get nowhere telling someone over the phone the ticket isn't yours because it's for a completely different make and model. I simply asked questions. What is the make and model on the ticket? What is the make and model of my registered car? Oh, they are different, why do you think that is? Questions are sneaky.
- LordDragonfang 5y ago
  >someone with a bit of a spectrum disorder. I'm surprised I had to scroll this far to see someone suggesting this, since it seems extremely obvious to me that this is part of the case. It's becoming fairly well-documented that one of the primary differences in people on the spectrum is a difference in communication style, which anecdotally seems to be more direct and less apologetic or prone to "superfluous" verbal (/nonverbal) contextualizing. With the prevalence of people on the spectrum in STEM, it's no surprise that you'd see it here, and indeed looking at the comments you can see quite a few people talking past each other about what OP "should" say with what is clearly a mismatch in communication style.
  - NumberCruncher 5y ago
    >> someone with a bit of a spectrum disorder. > I'm surprised I had to scroll this far to see someone suggesting this, since it seems extremely obvious to me that this is part of the case. The whole thread has currently 1471 points and 681 comments. I seem the be the 4th person realising, that the whole discussion is about "communication advices given by someone fighting the spectrum disorder". I don't know wat to say.
  - Ensorceled 5y ago
    I think the problem is that there are really three people this behaviour would apply to: 1. Someone with a spectrum disorder. 2. Someone who enjoys dicking around with people. 3. Someone with a spectrum disorder who enjoys dicking around with people. I'm trying to figure out if the person is in group 1 or 3. If you encounter a few people in Group 3, it's then harder to see people in Group 2 in a good light.
tremon 5y ago
I'm going to guess it's about luggage size restrictions for (air) travel.
- baobabKoodaa 5y ago
  Presumably you would throw the box away before air travel, and according to the article box size != laptop size.
  - genewitch 5y ago
    TSA might not ask you to turn on an unopened laptop, perhaps; but it had to do with the CPU above all else, I don't understand it but I don't understand half the stuff on that website. Still like reading it, though.
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  We keep coming back around to why didn't the author say: "I want the one in the smallest box for <reason>" Instead of providing no reason and being smug in their assumption that they are both very clever and the barely over minimum wage employee assumes they are "stupid".
  - sbierwagen 5y ago
    It's also funny that he didn't even put it in the post. I'm not sure it's because of length restrictions, since the post is 4,495 words long. Maybe he wanted to keep under 4,500. Also perplexing: footnote 2 mentions the car tire paradox. (Traction is determined by weight and coefficient of traction, and those two things only. So why do high performance cars have wider tires, which shouldn't make a difference? Because softer and stickier tires are mechanically weaker and tolerate heat less well, so you need to spread the force out over a larger area.) But it doesn't actually mention the answer besides noting many other people are wrong, and also is separately incorrect and says contact area doesn't change based on tire width? Like, there's no clever counterintuitive Boyle's law/hydraulics effect where at the same air pressure a tire twice as big deforms half as much or whatever. Just the very obvious intuitive case that wider tires have bigger contact patches, which you can calculate yourself by plugging numbers into this tire calculator: http://bndtechsource.ucoz.com/index/tire_data_calculator/0-20 http://bndtechsource.ucoz.com/index/tire_data_calculator/0-2... and the BMW i3 electric car has a crazy thin tire to have a smaller contact patch and less rolling resistance: https://www.bmwblog.com/2015/04/24/bmw-i3s-tires-more-important-than-youd-think/ https://www.bmwblog.com/2015/04/24/bmw-i3s-tires-more-import... And the css thing... notoriously, everything on danluu.com has been completely unstyled for years. So every time one of his posts is on HN, someone comments about the unreadably wide lines, which could be fixed with a single `body{max-width:600px}` CSS rule. But the reason everything is unstyled is because Dan installed octopress seven years ago, which had a braindead default theme that used custom fonts for everything, causing a glacial 15 second time to first paint: https://danluu.com/octopress-speedup/ https://danluu.com/octopress-speedup/ Irritated, Dan ripped out all the CSS entirely, and the site loads in a flash. But now he has a trapped prior,[1] and any time someone says "CSS" to him he thinks, "ugh, that awful garbage which ruined my site" and refuses to touch it. 1: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/trapped-priors-as-a-basic-problem https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/trapped-priors-as-a-ba...
bayindirh 5y ago
Studying thermals?
- dTal 5y ago
  They're clearly talking about the packaging, not the computer case. Without any kind of prior on this person's intelligence, I too would, in the position of the Apple employees, gravitate towards the "moron" theory.
  - spzb 5y ago
    Or certainly the "eccentric" theory.
    - Dudeman112 5y ago
      If someone gives me a weird, unusual input that is often wrong, they know is often wrong, I know is often wrong and they don't even try to explain why on this case the input is valid, I'll definitely roll with "they're a moron". Not explaining is just playing games at that point... Like morons do.
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  Maybe. But now I can't get it out of my head -- is it true that the smallest box contains the smallest laptops in general? It raises even more (admittedly pointless) questions, like "Is that true for Apple laptops, or all laptops? I bet Dell packs their tiny laptops with a bunch of peripherals or padding. A larger box might get sold more frequently." And even for Apple, are the boxes physically smaller between different models? I unpacked an M1 MBP the other day and was surprised how large the box was compared to the laptop. I think there's a 13 inch and a 15 inch, and it almost seemed like the box was designed for the 15 inch. Hmm... This calls for an empirical study. Too bad I don't live across the street from an Apple store anymore, or I'd just go look. But "How could any of this possibly matter to a CPU designer?" won't be so easily resolved. E.g. even if it's true that the smallest laptop comes in the smallest box, why didn't they ask for the smallest laptop? The salesperson would've been like "Of course, it's right over here." It sounds like he compared the actual sizes of boxes, which is fascinating.
simonswords82 5y ago
My guess was that he needed a small box in order to fit it in his bag to take home?
- lukeholder 5y ago
  Yeah but if that is true, why cause so much trouble and just said why you want the smallest box.
  - simonswords82 5y ago
    Totally agree - there's a difference between being willing to look stupid and going out of your way to look stupid!
  - dangerface 5y ago
    I think the sales person was causing the trouble tbh, if a customer knows what they want take the sale don't waste their time with 20 questions at the end of the day we both know the sales person was just trying to upsell the customer something they clearly didn't want. Its the sales persons job to take the hint and just make the sale tbh.
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      There is no indication at all that the clerk was causing any trouble, and Apple retail employees never try to upsell, whatever else you could accuse them of.
    - medstrom 5y ago
      It's my understanding that when a customer appears this confused, they'll come back with loud complaints and bad reviews if you just sell them what they asked for. And the Apple Store doesn't want to look like they do bad service, regardless of what happened.
      - dangerface 5y ago
        Thats fair enough if its a wee old granny trying to buy a laptop box I would question it, but if I work at a computer store and some one comes in and asks me for a specific one of the computers we sell I would just sell them that computer. I work at an advertising agency if we buy something for a giveaway we care a lot about the box it comes in, not whats inside it as we will never open it. The person buying the laptop is probably a currier that knows nothing more than to buy a laptop. If the currier is getting interrogated by a 16 year old sales clerk thats costing us money and more importantly time. I get they are just trying to be helpfull maybe even trying to save us money, but we only ever use retail because shipping takes to long. For example we have 20 laptops being shipped but need to take a picture of the box for promo material, we will happily pay for a new laptop and curriers simply so we can get a box in front of a camera so we can meet our dead lines. If we spend £2k on a new laptop and curriers just for a picture thats money well spent if we meet our dead lines. If we miss our dead lines because some kid was trying to save us £100 its going to cost us a fortune / client.
lolc 5y ago
I wondered about that story and concluded that the author knew which computer they wanted. They also knew that this computer came in the smallest box. So they only had to give that second bit of information to get what they wanted. It is a bit condescending in my view to withhold that information from the clerk. But then again, I'm only making assumptions. Also, I've done similar things where I refused to let on my internal reasoning for various reasons. Sometimes just to mess with people. And clearly, many people thought me a fool for it. If I'd actually told them my reasoning? In many instances that would not have improved their opinion of me. So no loss. There are also many instances where I could have benefited immensely from sharing my reasoning, because people could have corrected my mistaken assumptions. Can't say I've got it figured out when to keep shut and when to share.
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  If it happened, he purposefully chose a request that he knew would generate confusion and discomfort in a situation with someone he has power over. It reminds me of the high school bully who fake-punches you, knowing you'll react, and then punishing you for how you react. At best he purposefully made things more difficult than they had to be. She was absolutely right to think that he was a "bozo." I generally strive to make things as easy and painless as possible for service workers I deal with, because I've been a service worker. It wouldn't surprise me if he has never spent a day in his adult life working a service job. Regarding whether this actually happened or not: did any notice that "small box" item is one of the few he doesn't actually explain and he's withholding information from us just like he did from the salesperson? It feels like a "look at me, I'm so very smart, watch me manipulate my audience" move. His disdain for his readers is pretty obvious from the fact that he puts zero effort into readability; there isn't an drop of formatting, it's just a massive wall of text from edge to edge of the browser window.
  - soneca 5y ago
    I don’t share your assumption that he purposefully made things more difficult. My assumption is that he really didn’t know which computer came in the smaller box (since, computer size, which is the public info about the product, doesn’t exactly correlate with the box size). My guess is that he wanted to know which, if any, impact a small box would potentially have on computer components (like different impact absorption on transportation) that would require some CPU design adaptation. Like (speculation here, as I am nowhere near a CPU specialist): is a second memory clip more susceptible to be affected by transportation impact? So the box size is correlated with cheaper computers. Which tend to be larger computers, but can come in a smaller box because they don’t have that second memory clip? Idk, but I am assuming good intent and reasoning behind the anecdote.
rmetzler 5y ago
I think that this is unfair to the poor Apple Store employee. There is no reason to not state the motivation, why you ask for the smallest box. Other than that, I also try to employ the naive question and to some people these might sound stupid. But they are really useful because they can clear up lots of implicit implications and misunderstandings.
- dade_ 5y ago
  Did the Apple store employee ask why he wanted a computer that comes in the smallest box, or did he just assume the customer is stupid or ignorant? He doesn’t say either way, but most people will make an assumption instead of asking. The downside to this approach in retail is that it invites a long story…
  - Ensorceled 5y ago
    I expect Apple store employees to deal with both "I want the 15 inch MacBook Pro in Gun Metal Gray with 16GB ram and 1TB drive" and "I'm looking for a good laptop for my daughter for university but I don't know anything about computers" Making any kind of judgments about their reaction to "I want the one that comes in the smallest box" is ludicrous; the behaviour itself is mildly sociopathic.
    - mywittyname 5y ago
      When you work with the general public long enough, you kind of learn to spot when people are fucking with you and to just leave them be. This is especially true when working with technical stuff like computers. Good customer service is all about figuring out what people mean when they say ask for things. Sometimes they need genuine assistance, sometimes they just want to prove they are smart than you. If one was truly not afraid to ask stupid questions, they would have humored the sales person. Just recently I got a discount on some laptop parts, entirely because I asked the sales guy questions about upgrading ram in a laptop I was buying, even though I already knew the answers, I just wanted someone to double check my assumption. So I asked if he could help me pick it out. Turns out, he remembered that someone ordered, then cancelled the exact ram I was looking for, so he went to the upgrade center and got me a brand new stick of memory for the price of an "open box return." Be nice to sales people, even if you build the things they are selling.
cycomanic 5y ago
I have to say this part (and quite a few other parts of the post) come across as quite arrogant. I mean if he really wants the computer with the smallest box, why can't he explain why. I agree with the general gist of the post: don't be afraid to ask stupid questions. However, the post has an underlying "feeling" of "my questions are not really stupid, I'm just so smart that others don't realise". I know that I ask plenty of stupid questions when I ask questions, I often realise how stupid they were just after the answer.
- kevinmgranger 5y ago
  I think this interaction is an example of what "the customer is always right" is supposed to mean. Sure, the salesperson should verify that the person isn't using mistaken terminology, but past that, why not just help them? Or why didn't the salesperson take the initiative to ask them for the reason, instead of continuing to insist they were mistaken?
  - mbauman 5y ago
    But they did help him. I don't see this as a huge indictment on the rep here — they _do_ deal with people who are very ignorant of tech everyday. Maybe it took a while to convince them, but I think that's just as likely a failing of communication. > I eventually asked them to humor me and just bring out the boxes for the various laptop models so I could see the boxes, which they did, despite clearly thinking that my decision making process made no sense
- NiceWayToDoIT 5y ago
  I think it is measure of time, for author it looks simple to put everything in few words instead of having long explanation, I find this typical in IT, where my coworkers all the time trying to compress explanation in fewest words possible. Maybe laziness or type of optimization, but usually back fires as other people ask you multiple questions, arising from their own point of view.
  - dangerface 5y ago
heavenlyblue 5y ago
The funny thing is that "I design CPUs" has nothing to do with being able to pick the best possible laptop for one's needs. It's like saying "I know exactly which car I would like to drive every day because I designed the engine of a Ferrari".
- coldtea 5y ago
  >The funny thing is that "I design CPUs" has nothing to do with being able to pick the best possible laptop for one's needs No, but it heavily points to that you know basic things, like box-size != laptop size, or what CPUs do, and how to compare them, which is all the author claims.
supermatt 5y ago
ive done exactly this and it was a gift that i needed to fit in cabin bag on a flight. you cant check-in items with lithium batteries.
zabzonk 5y ago
Also needs to state what he means by "smallest". Volume? Width? Height?
jbjohns 5y ago
It's amusing how many people are literally offended that they didn't explain why. But the answer we have is: because they wanted the smaller box. They are paying for it, no further explanation is required to the employee or anyone else. The employee should get the smallest box as requested and then they can try something like "may I know why you want the smallest box? I might be able to provide better help".
- baobabKoodaa 5y ago
  I'll try my best to alleviate you bewilderment. I think people are offended because there is a certain "contract" to social interactions that people are expected to comply with, and this behavior broke that unwritten contract. Furthermore, it's not apparent to readers what could be gained from breaking the contract like that, so it seems like breaking the contract for no reason.
  - jbjohns 5y ago
    I'm not even sure the actual behaviour broke any contract. What people are complaining about is a short entry in a list of short entries.
- jcheng 5y ago
  It sounds like they politely tried to clarify. Dan was amused that they thought he might be stupid. But asking for a laptop based on such bizarre criteria without attempting to set any context for the human person who deals with not CPU designers 99.9999% of the time, and then smugly calling out said human person for not immediately giving him the benefit of the doubt, then blogging about the exchange in a self-glorifying post… I mean, I’m not personally offended, but I can see why people would be bothered.
anotheryou 5y ago
You can also take out all the awkwardness with a disclaimer: "This may sound stupid, but I really care just about the packaging here: Would it be possible to show me... "
InsomniacL 5y ago
Only half plausible reason I can think of is for a 'Pass The Parcel' prize. Anything else, surly the smallest laptop would be preferable and you could repackage it.
sethammons 5y ago
I'm thinking the reason why people think the author is "stupid" is because each is working with a different set of base assumptions. The worker can't imagine a case where the box dimensions would be material as that box is likely to be in the trash can in n minutes. The author wouldn't hit so many cases of being looked at crossly if they worked to bridge understanding with the other person. All of the cases presented suggest to me person may have some emotional intelligence to develop.
baobabKoodaa 5y ago
I'll venture a guess why they asked for the computer that comes in the smallest box. They were buying a computer as a present, and they needed to pack it for travel before unboxing.
amluto 5y ago
Here’s a hypothesis: Dan needed to transport the laptop before opening it. It could have been a gift and the goal was for it to fit, wrapped, in a small suitcase. Or for some reason he needed a shrink-wrapped unopened laptop somewhere (as evidence that it hadn’t been tampered with) and the quality of the laptop made no difference whatsoever. Even if this is wrong, I bet telling the salesperson that it was a gift and he wanted the smallest package would have avoided funny looks.
bambax 5y ago
What would be funny would be if in some alternate universe the small box contained the biggest, bulkiest, most powerful computer.
skybrian 5y ago
Or at least, if you don’t want to say why, it could be smoothed over with “I know this is going to sound like a bizarre request, but I want the one that comes in the smallest box. I have my reasons.” Acknowledging that you know your request is unusual makes it sound a lot less stupid.

Ensorceled 5y ago

I have to say, this example did make me switch my view of the author from some one who wasn't afraid to ask the "stupid" questions to being either a deliberately "just asking questions" asshole who likes to fuck with people or, to be more charitable, someone with a bit of a spectrum disorder.

MrQuincle 5y ago
I think it's better to be a bit more charitable here indeed. I also found it striking how the post is emphasizing how important transparency in asking questions is which might or might not reveal the intelectual qualities of the person asking, but then failing to be that transparent towards both the clerk and the reader of the blog post about the internal thought process. If one would like people to learn, enlighten them. :-)
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  I have encountered both, I'm sort of leaning towards being charitable since the "just asking questions" crowd tends not to write articles about their behaviour! That lack of transparency seems to be a theme. I have difficulty with blood draws as well and I have never encountered a health care professional that didn't immediately switch to "ok, which arm is usually best" mode.
  - wccrawford 5y ago
    I've seen people getting a blood draw that the nurse wasn't willing to listen to. They'd tell them what usually happens, and how it goes best, and the nurse would ignore them. In the end, every single one of the patients was correct. Anyone who typically had problems with blood draws knew their problems well. Yes, most nurses listen. But there are enough out there that don't that I've seen it multiple times. I've said nurses, but I don't actually know their professions.
    - Ensorceled 5y ago
      > I've seen people getting a blood draw that the nurse wasn't willing to listen to. They'd tell them what usually happens, and how it goes best, and the nurse would ignore them. Fair, it could just be my experience as a middle aged, white male coming into play here.
      - nzealand 5y ago
        Curiously, the best way I found to get past mental roadblocks, is to simply ask questions. I ended up with hundreds of parking tickets, for all different makes and models of cars. I quickly learned you get nowhere telling someone over the phone the ticket isn't yours because it's for a completely different make and model. I simply asked questions. What is the make and model on the ticket? What is the make and model of my registered car? Oh, they are different, why do you think that is? Questions are sneaky.
LordDragonfang 5y ago
>someone with a bit of a spectrum disorder. I'm surprised I had to scroll this far to see someone suggesting this, since it seems extremely obvious to me that this is part of the case. It's becoming fairly well-documented that one of the primary differences in people on the spectrum is a difference in communication style, which anecdotally seems to be more direct and less apologetic or prone to "superfluous" verbal (/nonverbal) contextualizing. With the prevalence of people on the spectrum in STEM, it's no surprise that you'd see it here, and indeed looking at the comments you can see quite a few people talking past each other about what OP "should" say with what is clearly a mismatch in communication style.
- NumberCruncher 5y ago
  >> someone with a bit of a spectrum disorder. > I'm surprised I had to scroll this far to see someone suggesting this, since it seems extremely obvious to me that this is part of the case. The whole thread has currently 1471 points and 681 comments. I seem the be the 4th person realising, that the whole discussion is about "communication advices given by someone fighting the spectrum disorder". I don't know wat to say.
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  I think the problem is that there are really three people this behaviour would apply to: 1. Someone with a spectrum disorder. 2. Someone who enjoys dicking around with people. 3. Someone with a spectrum disorder who enjoys dicking around with people. I'm trying to figure out if the person is in group 1 or 3. If you encounter a few people in Group 3, it's then harder to see people in Group 2 in a good light.

tremon 5y ago

I'm going to guess it's about luggage size restrictions for (air) travel.

baobabKoodaa 5y ago
Presumably you would throw the box away before air travel, and according to the article box size != laptop size.
- genewitch 5y ago
  TSA might not ask you to turn on an unopened laptop, perhaps; but it had to do with the CPU above all else, I don't understand it but I don't understand half the stuff on that website. Still like reading it, though.
Ensorceled 5y ago
We keep coming back around to why didn't the author say: "I want the one in the smallest box for <reason>" Instead of providing no reason and being smug in their assumption that they are both very clever and the barely over minimum wage employee assumes they are "stupid".
- sbierwagen 5y ago
  It's also funny that he didn't even put it in the post. I'm not sure it's because of length restrictions, since the post is 4,495 words long. Maybe he wanted to keep under 4,500. Also perplexing: footnote 2 mentions the car tire paradox. (Traction is determined by weight and coefficient of traction, and those two things only. So why do high performance cars have wider tires, which shouldn't make a difference? Because softer and stickier tires are mechanically weaker and tolerate heat less well, so you need to spread the force out over a larger area.) But it doesn't actually mention the answer besides noting many other people are wrong, and also is separately incorrect and says contact area doesn't change based on tire width? Like, there's no clever counterintuitive Boyle's law/hydraulics effect where at the same air pressure a tire twice as big deforms half as much or whatever. Just the very obvious intuitive case that wider tires have bigger contact patches, which you can calculate yourself by plugging numbers into this tire calculator: http://bndtechsource.ucoz.com/index/tire_data_calculator/0-20 http://bndtechsource.ucoz.com/index/tire_data_calculator/0-2... and the BMW i3 electric car has a crazy thin tire to have a smaller contact patch and less rolling resistance: https://www.bmwblog.com/2015/04/24/bmw-i3s-tires-more-important-than-youd-think/ https://www.bmwblog.com/2015/04/24/bmw-i3s-tires-more-import... And the css thing... notoriously, everything on danluu.com has been completely unstyled for years. So every time one of his posts is on HN, someone comments about the unreadably wide lines, which could be fixed with a single `body{max-width:600px}` CSS rule. But the reason everything is unstyled is because Dan installed octopress seven years ago, which had a braindead default theme that used custom fonts for everything, causing a glacial 15 second time to first paint: https://danluu.com/octopress-speedup/ https://danluu.com/octopress-speedup/ Irritated, Dan ripped out all the CSS entirely, and the site loads in a flash. But now he has a trapped prior,[1] and any time someone says "CSS" to him he thinks, "ugh, that awful garbage which ruined my site" and refuses to touch it. 1: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/trapped-priors-as-a-basic-problem https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/trapped-priors-as-a-ba...

bayindirh 5y ago

Studying thermals?

dTal 5y ago
They're clearly talking about the packaging, not the computer case. Without any kind of prior on this person's intelligence, I too would, in the position of the Apple employees, gravitate towards the "moron" theory.
- spzb 5y ago
  Or certainly the "eccentric" theory.
  - Dudeman112 5y ago
    If someone gives me a weird, unusual input that is often wrong, they know is often wrong, I know is often wrong and they don't even try to explain why on this case the input is valid, I'll definitely roll with "they're a moron". Not explaining is just playing games at that point... Like morons do.
sillysaurusx 5y ago
Maybe. But now I can't get it out of my head -- is it true that the smallest box contains the smallest laptops in general? It raises even more (admittedly pointless) questions, like "Is that true for Apple laptops, or all laptops? I bet Dell packs their tiny laptops with a bunch of peripherals or padding. A larger box might get sold more frequently." And even for Apple, are the boxes physically smaller between different models? I unpacked an M1 MBP the other day and was surprised how large the box was compared to the laptop. I think there's a 13 inch and a 15 inch, and it almost seemed like the box was designed for the 15 inch. Hmm... This calls for an empirical study. Too bad I don't live across the street from an Apple store anymore, or I'd just go look. But "How could any of this possibly matter to a CPU designer?" won't be so easily resolved. E.g. even if it's true that the smallest laptop comes in the smallest box, why didn't they ask for the smallest laptop? The salesperson would've been like "Of course, it's right over here." It sounds like he compared the actual sizes of boxes, which is fascinating.

simonswords82 5y ago

My guess was that he needed a small box in order to fit it in his bag to take home?

lukeholder 5y ago
Yeah but if that is true, why cause so much trouble and just said why you want the smallest box.
- simonswords82 5y ago
  Totally agree - there's a difference between being willing to look stupid and going out of your way to look stupid!
- dangerface 5y ago
  I think the sales person was causing the trouble tbh, if a customer knows what they want take the sale don't waste their time with 20 questions at the end of the day we both know the sales person was just trying to upsell the customer something they clearly didn't want. Its the sales persons job to take the hint and just make the sale tbh.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    There is no indication at all that the clerk was causing any trouble, and Apple retail employees never try to upsell, whatever else you could accuse them of.
  - medstrom 5y ago
    It's my understanding that when a customer appears this confused, they'll come back with loud complaints and bad reviews if you just sell them what they asked for. And the Apple Store doesn't want to look like they do bad service, regardless of what happened.
    - dangerface 5y ago
      Thats fair enough if its a wee old granny trying to buy a laptop box I would question it, but if I work at a computer store and some one comes in and asks me for a specific one of the computers we sell I would just sell them that computer. I work at an advertising agency if we buy something for a giveaway we care a lot about the box it comes in, not whats inside it as we will never open it. The person buying the laptop is probably a currier that knows nothing more than to buy a laptop. If the currier is getting interrogated by a 16 year old sales clerk thats costing us money and more importantly time. I get they are just trying to be helpfull maybe even trying to save us money, but we only ever use retail because shipping takes to long. For example we have 20 laptops being shipped but need to take a picture of the box for promo material, we will happily pay for a new laptop and curriers simply so we can get a box in front of a camera so we can meet our dead lines. If we spend £2k on a new laptop and curriers just for a picture thats money well spent if we meet our dead lines. If we miss our dead lines because some kid was trying to save us £100 its going to cost us a fortune / client.

lolc 5y ago

I wondered about that story and concluded that the author knew which computer they wanted. They also knew that this computer came in the smallest box. So they only had to give that second bit of information to get what they wanted. It is a bit condescending in my view to withhold that information from the clerk. But then again, I'm only making assumptions. Also, I've done similar things where I refused to let on my internal reasoning for various reasons. Sometimes just to mess with people. And clearly, many people thought me a fool for it. If I'd actually told them my reasoning? In many instances that would not have improved their opinion of me. So no loss. There are also many instances where I could have benefited immensely from sharing my reasoning, because people could have corrected my mistaken assumptions. Can't say I've got it figured out when to keep shut and when to share.

KennyBlanken 5y ago
If it happened, he purposefully chose a request that he knew would generate confusion and discomfort in a situation with someone he has power over. It reminds me of the high school bully who fake-punches you, knowing you'll react, and then punishing you for how you react. At best he purposefully made things more difficult than they had to be. She was absolutely right to think that he was a "bozo." I generally strive to make things as easy and painless as possible for service workers I deal with, because I've been a service worker. It wouldn't surprise me if he has never spent a day in his adult life working a service job. Regarding whether this actually happened or not: did any notice that "small box" item is one of the few he doesn't actually explain and he's withholding information from us just like he did from the salesperson? It feels like a "look at me, I'm so very smart, watch me manipulate my audience" move. His disdain for his readers is pretty obvious from the fact that he puts zero effort into readability; there isn't an drop of formatting, it's just a massive wall of text from edge to edge of the browser window.
- soneca 5y ago
  I don’t share your assumption that he purposefully made things more difficult. My assumption is that he really didn’t know which computer came in the smaller box (since, computer size, which is the public info about the product, doesn’t exactly correlate with the box size). My guess is that he wanted to know which, if any, impact a small box would potentially have on computer components (like different impact absorption on transportation) that would require some CPU design adaptation. Like (speculation here, as I am nowhere near a CPU specialist): is a second memory clip more susceptible to be affected by transportation impact? So the box size is correlated with cheaper computers. Which tend to be larger computers, but can come in a smaller box because they don’t have that second memory clip? Idk, but I am assuming good intent and reasoning behind the anecdote.

rmetzler 5y ago

I think that this is unfair to the poor Apple Store employee. There is no reason to not state the motivation, why you ask for the smallest box. Other than that, I also try to employ the naive question and to some people these might sound stupid. But they are really useful because they can clear up lots of implicit implications and misunderstandings.

dade_ 5y ago
Did the Apple store employee ask why he wanted a computer that comes in the smallest box, or did he just assume the customer is stupid or ignorant? He doesn’t say either way, but most people will make an assumption instead of asking. The downside to this approach in retail is that it invites a long story…
- Ensorceled 5y ago
  I expect Apple store employees to deal with both "I want the 15 inch MacBook Pro in Gun Metal Gray with 16GB ram and 1TB drive" and "I'm looking for a good laptop for my daughter for university but I don't know anything about computers" Making any kind of judgments about their reaction to "I want the one that comes in the smallest box" is ludicrous; the behaviour itself is mildly sociopathic.
  - mywittyname 5y ago
    When you work with the general public long enough, you kind of learn to spot when people are fucking with you and to just leave them be. This is especially true when working with technical stuff like computers. Good customer service is all about figuring out what people mean when they say ask for things. Sometimes they need genuine assistance, sometimes they just want to prove they are smart than you. If one was truly not afraid to ask stupid questions, they would have humored the sales person. Just recently I got a discount on some laptop parts, entirely because I asked the sales guy questions about upgrading ram in a laptop I was buying, even though I already knew the answers, I just wanted someone to double check my assumption. So I asked if he could help me pick it out. Turns out, he remembered that someone ordered, then cancelled the exact ram I was looking for, so he went to the upgrade center and got me a brand new stick of memory for the price of an "open box return." Be nice to sales people, even if you build the things they are selling.

cycomanic 5y ago

I have to say this part (and quite a few other parts of the post) come across as quite arrogant. I mean if he really wants the computer with the smallest box, why can't he explain why. I agree with the general gist of the post: don't be afraid to ask stupid questions. However, the post has an underlying "feeling" of "my questions are not really stupid, I'm just so smart that others don't realise". I know that I ask plenty of stupid questions when I ask questions, I often realise how stupid they were just after the answer.

kevinmgranger 5y ago
I think this interaction is an example of what "the customer is always right" is supposed to mean. Sure, the salesperson should verify that the person isn't using mistaken terminology, but past that, why not just help them? Or why didn't the salesperson take the initiative to ask them for the reason, instead of continuing to insist they were mistaken?
- mbauman 5y ago
  But they did help him. I don't see this as a huge indictment on the rep here — they _do_ deal with people who are very ignorant of tech everyday. Maybe it took a while to convince them, but I think that's just as likely a failing of communication. > I eventually asked them to humor me and just bring out the boxes for the various laptop models so I could see the boxes, which they did, despite clearly thinking that my decision making process made no sense
NiceWayToDoIT 5y ago
I think it is measure of time, for author it looks simple to put everything in few words instead of having long explanation, I find this typical in IT, where my coworkers all the time trying to compress explanation in fewest words possible. Maybe laziness or type of optimization, but usually back fires as other people ask you multiple questions, arising from their own point of view.
- dangerface 5y ago

heavenlyblue 5y ago

The funny thing is that "I design CPUs" has nothing to do with being able to pick the best possible laptop for one's needs. It's like saying "I know exactly which car I would like to drive every day because I designed the engine of a Ferrari".

coldtea 5y ago
>The funny thing is that "I design CPUs" has nothing to do with being able to pick the best possible laptop for one's needs No, but it heavily points to that you know basic things, like box-size != laptop size, or what CPUs do, and how to compare them, which is all the author claims.

supermatt 5y ago

ive done exactly this and it was a gift that i needed to fit in cabin bag on a flight. you cant check-in items with lithium batteries.

zabzonk 5y ago

Also needs to state what he means by "smallest". Volume? Width? Height?

jbjohns 5y ago

It's amusing how many people are literally offended that they didn't explain why. But the answer we have is: because they wanted the smaller box. They are paying for it, no further explanation is required to the employee or anyone else. The employee should get the smallest box as requested and then they can try something like "may I know why you want the smallest box? I might be able to provide better help".

baobabKoodaa 5y ago
I'll try my best to alleviate you bewilderment. I think people are offended because there is a certain "contract" to social interactions that people are expected to comply with, and this behavior broke that unwritten contract. Furthermore, it's not apparent to readers what could be gained from breaking the contract like that, so it seems like breaking the contract for no reason.
- jbjohns 5y ago
  I'm not even sure the actual behaviour broke any contract. What people are complaining about is a short entry in a list of short entries.
jcheng 5y ago
It sounds like they politely tried to clarify. Dan was amused that they thought he might be stupid. But asking for a laptop based on such bizarre criteria without attempting to set any context for the human person who deals with not CPU designers 99.9999% of the time, and then smugly calling out said human person for not immediately giving him the benefit of the doubt, then blogging about the exchange in a self-glorifying post… I mean, I’m not personally offended, but I can see why people would be bothered.

anotheryou 5y ago

You can also take out all the awkwardness with a disclaimer: "This may sound stupid, but I really care just about the packaging here: Would it be possible to show me... "

InsomniacL 5y ago

Only half plausible reason I can think of is for a 'Pass The Parcel' prize. Anything else, surly the smallest laptop would be preferable and you could repackage it.

sethammons 5y ago

I'm thinking the reason why people think the author is "stupid" is because each is working with a different set of base assumptions. The worker can't imagine a case where the box dimensions would be material as that box is likely to be in the trash can in n minutes. The author wouldn't hit so many cases of being looked at crossly if they worked to bridge understanding with the other person. All of the cases presented suggest to me person may have some emotional intelligence to develop.

baobabKoodaa 5y ago

I'll venture a guess why they asked for the computer that comes in the smallest box. They were buying a computer as a present, and they needed to pack it for travel before unboxing.

amluto 5y ago

Here’s a hypothesis: Dan needed to transport the laptop before opening it. It could have been a gift and the goal was for it to fit, wrapped, in a small suitcase. Or for some reason he needed a shrink-wrapped unopened laptop somewhere (as evidence that it hadn’t been tampered with) and the quality of the laptop made no difference whatsoever. Even if this is wrong, I bet telling the salesperson that it was a gift and he wanted the smallest package would have avoided funny looks.

bambax 5y ago

What would be funny would be if in some alternate universe the small box contained the biggest, bulkiest, most powerful computer.

skybrian 5y ago

Or at least, if you don’t want to say why, it could be smoothed over with “I know this is going to sound like a bizarre request, but I want the one that comes in the smallest box. I have my reasons.” Acknowledging that you know your request is unusual makes it sound a lot less stupid.