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GUI design tooling and programming has regressed dramatically since those days. It's like we decided that GUI programming should be maximally inconvenient and u

by api 5y ago

GUI design tooling and programming has regressed dramatically since those days. It's like we decided that GUI programming should be maximally inconvenient and ugly.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
I don't agree. What has happened is the scope of "GUI programming" has changed significantly. "VBLANK-synced animation with simultaneous multi-touch drags" was not a thing in the 80s, 90s and barely the 2000's. Now it's a basic requirement. Plenty of other examples of features like this, which don't change the demo code for a "Hello, World" example, but have massive implications for the internal structure of GUI toolkits. Also, there's more focus on cross-platform now, which adds its own complications.
- api 5y ago
  The regression has been around what it takes to design a UI. We've abandoned visual design in favor of ugly HTML/XML markup or coding the UI layout manually, both of which are much slower and make design a lot more difficult.
  - md8z 5y ago
    In my experience, that is a side effect of the complications mentioned in the GP. It has become increasingly difficult to create RAD tools that work well for both designers and programmers at the same time. Modern tools will usually target one or the other. Example: Even when you get into something basic for the 2020s like a responsive interface, you can't really do that without introducing code because there is complex logic in the break points.
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
  > Also, there's more focus on cross-platform now, which adds its own complications. We are talking about Windows now, and there is zero cross-platform compatibility in Microsoft's UI frameworks (unless you mean cross-architecture between x86/amd64 and arm32/arm64). It is against their interests and they will never do it, just like Apple.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
    I don't see where we're talking about Windows. The alternatives to "Visual Basic + WinForms" are as likely to come from third party cross-platform toolkit developers as from anything Windows specific. And it doesn't matter what MS or Apple want or do, there are numerous cross-platform UI toolkits available, and there always will be, because a bunch of software developers are not going to play by their rules.

by api 5y ago

GUI design tooling and programming has regressed dramatically since those days. It's like we decided that GUI programming should be maximally inconvenient and ugly.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago

I don't agree. What has happened is the scope of "GUI programming" has changed significantly. "VBLANK-synced animation with simultaneous multi-touch drags" was not a thing in the 80s, 90s and barely the 2000's. Now it's a basic requirement. Plenty of other examples of features like this, which don't change the demo code for a "Hello, World" example, but have massive implications for the internal structure of GUI toolkits. Also, there's more focus on cross-platform now, which adds its own complications.

api 5y ago
The regression has been around what it takes to design a UI. We've abandoned visual design in favor of ugly HTML/XML markup or coding the UI layout manually, both of which are much slower and make design a lot more difficult.
- md8z 5y ago
  In my experience, that is a side effect of the complications mentioned in the GP. It has become increasingly difficult to create RAD tools that work well for both designers and programmers at the same time. Modern tools will usually target one or the other. Example: Even when you get into something basic for the 2020s like a responsive interface, you can't really do that without introducing code because there is complex logic in the break points.
hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
> Also, there's more focus on cross-platform now, which adds its own complications. We are talking about Windows now, and there is zero cross-platform compatibility in Microsoft's UI frameworks (unless you mean cross-architecture between x86/amd64 and arm32/arm64). It is against their interests and they will never do it, just like Apple.
- PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
  I don't see where we're talking about Windows. The alternatives to "Visual Basic + WinForms" are as likely to come from third party cross-platform toolkit developers as from anything Windows specific. And it doesn't matter what MS or Apple want or do, there are numerous cross-platform UI toolkits available, and there always will be, because a bunch of software developers are not going to play by their rules.