4 ms·

Women's quest to be 'romantically desirable' conflicts with scientific pursuits

13 points by makeramen 15y ago

sp332 15y ago
So, women don't know how to express themselves romantically using math. The answer seems simple enough: a few romantic mathy role models should fix that quickly. We could start with Vi Hart's videos. http://www.youtube.com/user/Vihart#g/u http://www.youtube.com/user/Vihart#g/u
Eliezer 15y ago
I seriously wonder what would happen if we ran a similar test on women who'd read lots of Hermione Granger-centric shipping fics in which the male romantic interest is attracted to her because of her intelligence. Of course this wouldn't disentangle causality from correlation.
Almaviva 15y ago
Is this different than for men somehow? I don't remember seeing math and chess teams having the most romantically desirable boys at my high school. Yet I (for instance) did these things as well as programming just because I needed to and liked it so much. If it was the reason I was picked on and a social outcast, it didn't really make a difference. I don't see many women like this. Why not? It didn't change much in adulthood either, at least for me. Yet if programming has any connection to my complete inability to attract a woman (it's clearly not the whole story) it still doesn't matter because it's such a great career and hobby for me that I love passionately. So why are there so few adult women like this too?
- antimora 15y ago
  One of the points the article made was that women "experience backlash for violating societal expectations", which might play a big role why there aren't many female programmers. This also could explain why I often come across female programmers from India, which is possible they are encouraged more. But regardless, I personally don't entirely agree with the article's conclusion that the difference is purely dependent external factors like culture. I think guys like to tinker with tools more often than girls, and this interest is influenced by genetics.
klipt 15y ago
The study is likely specific to the country where it was conducted (I'm guessing the USA). I believe there are studies showing that while girls in the US are socialized to think of math and science as "masculine", which consequently affects their willingness to learn said subjects, things are much more equal in countries like Japan.
sitkack 15y ago
While I have obviously self selected my population ... I don't know a single guy that doesn't find female intelligence enticing. Women that use their brains to do what they want are attractive and albeit in short supply. Women in the US aren't allowed to smart or funny. They can be hot, but not smart or funny. This isn't true in other places. Eastern Europe for one afaict doesn't discriminate against female intelligence.
- tryitnow 15y ago
  I hadn't noticed it before, but that's a very good point about Eastern European women. Wonder why...
- bluekeybox 15y ago
  > Eastern Europe for one afaict doesn't discriminate against female intelligence. Former Eastern European here -- not sure I would single out Eastern Europe as being "better" in gender norms. How do you explain the Devushka phenomenon? http://www.carpetblog.typepad.com/carpetblogger/2006/07/devuskha_style.html http://www.carpetblog.typepad.com/carpetblogger/2006/07/devu... Going into STEM fields may anticorrelate with pursuing romantic interests -- but it doesn't imply that it correlates with intelligence/strength. I have encountered many more women with strong personalities who think for themselves among art students than among math grad students, for example. As a matter of fact, as a male, I am attracted to the "strong woman" type -- but paradoxically I find more women of that type among those who have liberal arts degrees. I believe this has something to do with engineering degrees being perceived as ones that "train you to be a corporate slave" rather than ones that strengthen your personality.
zach 15y ago
A great counterpoint experiment would be to similarly expose young men to images, verbal cues and goals of physical fitness and competitiveness and then measure their interest in STEM achievement. If there is no negative impact, you overturn the long-presumed jock-versus-nerd social paradigm. If there is a negative impact, you overturn the presumed masculinity and gender norms cited here as being associated with STEM and force a little more nuance into this argument.

13 points by makeramen 15y ago

sp332 15y ago

So, women don't know how to express themselves romantically using math. The answer seems simple enough: a few romantic mathy role models should fix that quickly. We could start with Vi Hart's videos. http://www.youtube.com/user/Vihart#g/u http://www.youtube.com/user/Vihart#g/u

Eliezer 15y ago

I seriously wonder what would happen if we ran a similar test on women who'd read lots of Hermione Granger-centric shipping fics in which the male romantic interest is attracted to her because of her intelligence. Of course this wouldn't disentangle causality from correlation.

Almaviva 15y ago

Is this different than for men somehow? I don't remember seeing math and chess teams having the most romantically desirable boys at my high school. Yet I (for instance) did these things as well as programming just because I needed to and liked it so much. If it was the reason I was picked on and a social outcast, it didn't really make a difference. I don't see many women like this. Why not? It didn't change much in adulthood either, at least for me. Yet if programming has any connection to my complete inability to attract a woman (it's clearly not the whole story) it still doesn't matter because it's such a great career and hobby for me that I love passionately. So why are there so few adult women like this too?

antimora 15y ago
One of the points the article made was that women "experience backlash for violating societal expectations", which might play a big role why there aren't many female programmers. This also could explain why I often come across female programmers from India, which is possible they are encouraged more. But regardless, I personally don't entirely agree with the article's conclusion that the difference is purely dependent external factors like culture. I think guys like to tinker with tools more often than girls, and this interest is influenced by genetics.

klipt 15y ago

The study is likely specific to the country where it was conducted (I'm guessing the USA). I believe there are studies showing that while girls in the US are socialized to think of math and science as "masculine", which consequently affects their willingness to learn said subjects, things are much more equal in countries like Japan.

sitkack 15y ago

While I have obviously self selected my population ... I don't know a single guy that doesn't find female intelligence enticing. Women that use their brains to do what they want are attractive and albeit in short supply. Women in the US aren't allowed to smart or funny. They can be hot, but not smart or funny. This isn't true in other places. Eastern Europe for one afaict doesn't discriminate against female intelligence.

tryitnow 15y ago
I hadn't noticed it before, but that's a very good point about Eastern European women. Wonder why...
bluekeybox 15y ago
> Eastern Europe for one afaict doesn't discriminate against female intelligence. Former Eastern European here -- not sure I would single out Eastern Europe as being "better" in gender norms. How do you explain the Devushka phenomenon? http://www.carpetblog.typepad.com/carpetblogger/2006/07/devuskha_style.html http://www.carpetblog.typepad.com/carpetblogger/2006/07/devu... Going into STEM fields may anticorrelate with pursuing romantic interests -- but it doesn't imply that it correlates with intelligence/strength. I have encountered many more women with strong personalities who think for themselves among art students than among math grad students, for example. As a matter of fact, as a male, I am attracted to the "strong woman" type -- but paradoxically I find more women of that type among those who have liberal arts degrees. I believe this has something to do with engineering degrees being perceived as ones that "train you to be a corporate slave" rather than ones that strengthen your personality.

zach 15y ago

A great counterpoint experiment would be to similarly expose young men to images, verbal cues and goals of physical fitness and competitiveness and then measure their interest in STEM achievement. If there is no negative impact, you overturn the long-presumed jock-versus-nerd social paradigm. If there is a negative impact, you overturn the presumed masculinity and gender norms cited here as being associated with STEM and force a little more nuance into this argument.