8 ms·

It's the busiest port on earth. I suppose they should be getting minimum wage?

by soperj 5y ago

fdsfds76543 5y ago
They should be getting $0 because their jobs can be automated
- makotech222 5y ago
  [dead]
- jdavis703 5y ago
  Do you really believe port automation is at the stage where it can be fully automated with no port workers? Even at “automated” ports, I assure you there are still port workers to deal with anomalies. And yeah they should be paid more than $0.
  - fdsfds76543 5y ago
    "Not as enthusiastic over automated terminals like LBCT have been the 15,000 longshore workers, including part-time casuals, who man the docks in the Ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach, the busiest and second busiest in the nation, respectively. Terminal automation poses big changes — and likely some job losses — in those dockworker ranks. LBCT, for example, features remotely run electric cranes gliding back and forth and a computer-controlled stacking system. Multiple containers can be handled by the cranes at one time." https://www.presstelegram.com/2021/08/20/completion-of-long-beach-ports-automated-terminal-hailed-as-creating-a-new-bar-for-the-industry/ https://www.presstelegram.com/2021/08/20/completion-of-long-... EDIT: Apparently my factual post about saying crane operator jobs can be automated was flagged. Incredible
- ihumanable 5y ago
  What's the end of this line of thinking, 12 trillionaires that own all the automation and a vast mass of unemployed people?
  - l33t2328 5y ago
    Yes, of course. Why should this not be the goal? If machines can replace all work, you say it’s a better option to keep work around?
  - Karrot_Kream 5y ago
    Yes with heavy taxation used to fund a basic income for everyone. I doubt it'll ever be that simple; services still occupy the majority of the US economy. But there's no point keeping work alive just to have people work.
thereddaikon 5y ago
Clearly there's a middle ground here. It doesn't have to be all one way or the other. Unions and corporations can both be corrupt and fall into malaise. There are examples enough to give anyone ammunition to make whatever point they want.
- pydry 5y ago
  I've yet to hear anybody argue that corporate corruption means that corporations no longer serve a purpose.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    Corporations serve a purpose beyond just fighting with unions.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
There might be some other reasonably fair salary that exists between minimum wage and $300k/year.
- mistrial9 5y ago
  This is not exactly the same as a union bus driver.. I think its fair to say, that this is not a supply-and-demand wage negotiation, rather it is high-stakes negotiation between guilds, over decades. The aisles of the ports are intensely profitable, but operate under heavy pressures.
- Frondo 5y ago
  "Fair" is whatever they can negotiate. Who are you or I to say what's "fair" for someone else haggling over prices?
  - myfavoritedog 5y ago
    Fairness can only be achieved in a competitive environment without unnecessary and contrived leverage. It's really hard to find something fair when unions elect politicians who write laws for unions that allow strangling negotiations that give unions more money to elect politicians who write laws for unions... and on and on. What happens with that high leverage, low competition environment is you end up with the richest country on earth having huge supply chain bottlenecks and rated as having some of the worst ports in the world.
    - soperj 5y ago
      > Fairness can only be achieved in a competitive environment without unnecessary and contrived leverage. It's really hard to find something fair when unions elect politicians who write laws for unions that allow strangling negotiations that give unions more money to elect politicians who write laws for unions... and on and on. Corporations do exactly this, so sounds very fair actually.
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    Right, as long as the market is free, fair is whatever they can negotiate. If they artificially restrict labor competition or anything like that, then it isn't really fair anymore, like any monopoly.
vernie 5y ago
You dunderhead. You utter clod.
dirtyid 5y ago
It's not even top 10 on earth with around quarter to half capacity of modern automated Asian ports that operate 24/7. Considering supply chain and economic knock on affects, everyone that can be automated should be ASAP.
rsj_hn 5y ago
When someone is running a horse and buggy taxi service in 2021, the issue isn't whether the guy shoveling the manure is being paid a fair wage for working hard, or whether their job is easy, but rather why their job exists in the first place. Major ports have automated long ago. "Biden’s Build Back Better bill, Section 30102, expressly prohibits the use of funds provided there to be used for automation."[1] The union is clear it opposes automation: "TTI would become the fourth automated container terminal in Southern California. Total Terminals International’s (TTI’s) decision this week to automate its 385-acre Pier T terminal in Long Beach sets up a classic struggle between terminal operator employers and the International Longshore and Warehouse Union (ILWU). The union opposes the project on the grounds it will eliminate some dockworker jobs, but employers say automation is needed to increase capacity and keep the ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles competitive."[3] And this results in outdated infrastructure and lower productivity: "Cranes in automated ports operate at least twice as fast as cranes in outdated US ports. Biden’s port czar, John Porcari, let the truth out when he said last week it’s “your grandfather’s infrastructure that we’re dealing with.”[1] "The International Longshoremen’s Association contract, which extends to 2024, blocks the use of automation technology. Willie Adams, president of the International Longshore and Warehouse Union, which represents West Coast workers, says automated cargo handling equipment will not be tolerated."[1] "In a July 7 letter to California Governor Gavin Newsom, International Longshore and Warehouse Union (ILWU) president Willie Adams cited the pandemic and the US-China trade war as reason why terminal automation, mostly recently seen at APM Terminals’ Los Angeles terminal, would hurt the ports, its workers, and surrounding communities. “This is simply not the time to allow further job losses to automation. Losing jobs to automation not only undermines the long term capacity of our ports, but it does lasting damage on our families,” Adams wrote [.. seen as] further evidence of the union’s single-minded focus on automation. That was seen most clearly in its surprisingly vocal opposition last year to a limited automation project at the APM Terminals Pier 400 facility in Los Angeles despite having agreed years earlier to a collective bargaining agreement that allowed terminals to automate in return for $800 million in additional wages and benefits."[2] When Tanzania's port is more productive than yours, then it's time to finally move into the 21st century. [1] https://nypost.com/2021/10/18/to-please-unions-biden-wont-automate-ports-fueling-supply-chain-woes/ https://nypost.com/2021/10/18/to-please-unions-biden-wont-au... [2] https://www.joc.com/port-news/us-ports/ilwu’s-anti-automation-plea-california-hints-contract-flashpoint_20200724.html https://www.joc.com/port-news/us-ports/ilwu’s-anti-automatio... [3] https://ilaunion.org/2021/05/latest-long-beach-terminal-automation-draws-ilwu-backlash/\ https://ilaunion.org/2021/05/latest-long-beach-terminal-auto...*
diebeforei485 5y ago
It's not even close to the busiest port on earth. Singapore, Rotterdam, Dubai, Antwerp, Hong Kong, and so many Chinese ports are busier. Notably, all of those are more automated. Edit: It's not even close to the busiest port in the US: https://www.bts.gov/content/tonnage-top-50-us-water-ports-ranked-total-tons https://www.bts.gov/content/tonnage-top-50-us-water-ports-ra...

It's the busiest port on earth. I suppose they should be getting minimum wage?

by soperj 5y ago

It's the busiest port on earth. I suppose they should be getting minimum wage?

fdsfds76543 5y ago

They should be getting $0 because their jobs can be automated

makotech222 5y ago
[dead]
jdavis703 5y ago
Do you really believe port automation is at the stage where it can be fully automated with no port workers? Even at “automated” ports, I assure you there are still port workers to deal with anomalies. And yeah they should be paid more than $0.
- fdsfds76543 5y ago
  "Not as enthusiastic over automated terminals like LBCT have been the 15,000 longshore workers, including part-time casuals, who man the docks in the Ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach, the busiest and second busiest in the nation, respectively. Terminal automation poses big changes — and likely some job losses — in those dockworker ranks. LBCT, for example, features remotely run electric cranes gliding back and forth and a computer-controlled stacking system. Multiple containers can be handled by the cranes at one time." https://www.presstelegram.com/2021/08/20/completion-of-long-beach-ports-automated-terminal-hailed-as-creating-a-new-bar-for-the-industry/ https://www.presstelegram.com/2021/08/20/completion-of-long-... EDIT: Apparently my factual post about saying crane operator jobs can be automated was flagged. Incredible
ihumanable 5y ago
What's the end of this line of thinking, 12 trillionaires that own all the automation and a vast mass of unemployed people?
- l33t2328 5y ago
  Yes, of course. Why should this not be the goal? If machines can replace all work, you say it’s a better option to keep work around?
- Karrot_Kream 5y ago
  Yes with heavy taxation used to fund a basic income for everyone. I doubt it'll ever be that simple; services still occupy the majority of the US economy. But there's no point keeping work alive just to have people work.

thereddaikon 5y ago

Clearly there's a middle ground here. It doesn't have to be all one way or the other. Unions and corporations can both be corrupt and fall into malaise. There are examples enough to give anyone ammunition to make whatever point they want.

pydry 5y ago
I've yet to hear anybody argue that corporate corruption means that corporations no longer serve a purpose.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Corporations serve a purpose beyond just fighting with unions.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

There might be some other reasonably fair salary that exists between minimum wage and $300k/year.

mistrial9 5y ago
This is not exactly the same as a union bus driver.. I think its fair to say, that this is not a supply-and-demand wage negotiation, rather it is high-stakes negotiation between guilds, over decades. The aisles of the ports are intensely profitable, but operate under heavy pressures.
Frondo 5y ago
"Fair" is whatever they can negotiate. Who are you or I to say what's "fair" for someone else haggling over prices?
- myfavoritedog 5y ago
  Fairness can only be achieved in a competitive environment without unnecessary and contrived leverage. It's really hard to find something fair when unions elect politicians who write laws for unions that allow strangling negotiations that give unions more money to elect politicians who write laws for unions... and on and on. What happens with that high leverage, low competition environment is you end up with the richest country on earth having huge supply chain bottlenecks and rated as having some of the worst ports in the world.
  - soperj 5y ago
    > Fairness can only be achieved in a competitive environment without unnecessary and contrived leverage. It's really hard to find something fair when unions elect politicians who write laws for unions that allow strangling negotiations that give unions more money to elect politicians who write laws for unions... and on and on. Corporations do exactly this, so sounds very fair actually.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  Right, as long as the market is free, fair is whatever they can negotiate. If they artificially restrict labor competition or anything like that, then it isn't really fair anymore, like any monopoly.

vernie 5y ago

You dunderhead. You utter clod.

dirtyid 5y ago

It's not even top 10 on earth with around quarter to half capacity of modern automated Asian ports that operate 24/7. Considering supply chain and economic knock on affects, everyone that can be automated should be ASAP.

rsj_hn 5y ago

When someone is running a horse and buggy taxi service in 2021, the issue isn't whether the guy shoveling the manure is being paid a fair wage for working hard, or whether their job is easy, but rather why their job exists in the first place. Major ports have automated long ago. "Biden’s Build Back Better bill, Section 30102, expressly prohibits the use of funds provided there to be used for automation."[1] The union is clear it opposes automation: "TTI would become the fourth automated container terminal in Southern California. Total Terminals International’s (TTI’s) decision this week to automate its 385-acre Pier T terminal in Long Beach sets up a classic struggle between terminal operator employers and the International Longshore and Warehouse Union (ILWU). The union opposes the project on the grounds it will eliminate some dockworker jobs, but employers say automation is needed to increase capacity and keep the ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles competitive."[3] And this results in outdated infrastructure and lower productivity: "Cranes in automated ports operate at least twice as fast as cranes in outdated US ports. Biden’s port czar, John Porcari, let the truth out when he said last week it’s “your grandfather’s infrastructure that we’re dealing with.”[1] "The International Longshoremen’s Association contract, which extends to 2024, blocks the use of automation technology. Willie Adams, president of the International Longshore and Warehouse Union, which represents West Coast workers, says automated cargo handling equipment will not be tolerated."[1] "In a July 7 letter to California Governor Gavin Newsom, International Longshore and Warehouse Union (ILWU) president Willie Adams cited the pandemic and the US-China trade war as reason why terminal automation, mostly recently seen at APM Terminals’ Los Angeles terminal, would hurt the ports, its workers, and surrounding communities. “This is simply not the time to allow further job losses to automation. Losing jobs to automation not only undermines the long term capacity of our ports, but it does lasting damage on our families,” Adams wrote [.. seen as] further evidence of the union’s single-minded focus on automation. That was seen most clearly in its surprisingly vocal opposition last year to a limited automation project at the APM Terminals Pier 400 facility in Los Angeles despite having agreed years earlier to a collective bargaining agreement that allowed terminals to automate in return for $800 million in additional wages and benefits."[2] When Tanzania's port is more productive than yours, then it's time to finally move into the 21st century. [1] https://nypost.com/2021/10/18/to-please-unions-biden-wont-automate-ports-fueling-supply-chain-woes/ https://nypost.com/2021/10/18/to-please-unions-biden-wont-au... [2] https://www.joc.com/port-news/us-ports/ilwu’s-anti-automation-plea-california-hints-contract-flashpoint_20200724.html https://www.joc.com/port-news/us-ports/ilwu’s-anti-automatio... [3] https://ilaunion.org/2021/05/latest-long-beach-terminal-automation-draws-ilwu-backlash/\ https://ilaunion.org/2021/05/latest-long-beach-terminal-auto...*

diebeforei485 5y ago

It's not even close to the busiest port on earth. Singapore, Rotterdam, Dubai, Antwerp, Hong Kong, and so many Chinese ports are busier. Notably, all of those are more automated. Edit: It's not even close to the busiest port in the US: https://www.bts.gov/content/tonnage-top-50-us-water-ports-ranked-total-tons https://www.bts.gov/content/tonnage-top-50-us-water-ports-ra...