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Alternatively, Finland has seen great success from banning private schools and school districts. If rich people knew the only way to get good schooling for the

Alternatively, Finland has seen great success from banning private schools and school districts. If rich people knew the only way to get good schooling for their kids is to make schooling better entirely, then we'd have better schools. https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-am...

MontyCarloHall 5y ago
Banning private schools is a completely different matter from banning public schools’ gifted programs, as is being discussed here. Apples to oranges.
- aaomidi 5y ago
  Not really. There shouldn't be "gifted programs", because they're not actually measuring "intelligence" but "how much money do the parents have to create extra schooling" What about this, why not have __every__ school provide personalized education to each person? Do we not have the money for that? Because we are __the richest country__.
  - andrepd 5y ago
    But that's precisely what we're saying: gifted programs for any student, regardless of wealth. You have special education for students with needs that prevent them from being able to learn in a "normal" classroom, why not for gifted students as well?
    - aaomidi 5y ago
      > gifted programs for any student, regardless of wealth. Right "any student" - so please explain to me what causes the huge disproportionate racial gap in these schools? There's really two arguments here: - Biological - Non biological If anyone thinks its the first one, I'm not having this discussion with you. If you think it's the second one, are taxes going to gifted schools actually...helping society?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - colpabar 5y ago
        Do you really expect anyone to engage with you in good faith when you state you'll only accept certain answers?
        aaomidi 5y ago
        Show me what I missed then. What could be an explanation of why there is a huge difference in racial demographics when it comes to these schools that don't fall into one of those two categories?
        colpabar 5y ago
        Idk, but there's lot to read. Here's an article I just found https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-black-white-test-score-gap-why-it-persists-and-what-can-be-done/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-black-white-test-scor... > Traditional explanations for the black-white test score gap have not stood up well to the test of time. During the 1960s, most liberals blamed the gap on some combination of black poverty, racial segregation, and inadequate funding of black schools. Since then, the number of affluent black families has grown dramatically, but their children’s test scores still lag far behind those of white children from equally affluent families. School desegregation may have played some role in reducing the black-white test score gap in the South, but school desegregation also seems to have costs for blacks, and when we compare initially similar students in today’s schools, those who attend desegregated schools learn only slightly more than those in segregated schools. Automatically blaming any discrepancy on outcomes between different racial groups on racism isn't helping anyone. It also doesn't really feel like you're looking to discuss or learn anything here, rather just to scold people for being racist. This is a tough question that doesn't have a solid answer yet.
        aaomidi 5y ago
        > rather just to scold people for being racist Where did I scold people, or call people racist? I said I'm not interested in the discussion if you think there is a _biological reason_ behind it.
  - collegeburner 5y ago
    I was in some gifted programs that were based on an IQ cutoff. I know its an imperfect measurement and we can work on better ones but theres a difference between a private school (how much money) and a gifted program.
  - l30n4da5 5y ago
    > Not really. There shouldn't be "gifted programs", because they're not actually measuring "intelligence" but "how much money do the parents have to create extra schooling" I think you have a misunderstanding about what a gifted program is. I went through a gifted program as a child and I can assure you that my parents paid no money for it, considering our income was so low that we qualified for free lunches in school.
    - xmaayy 5y ago
      I also went through a gifted program. It was at one of the most poorly funded schools, and I had to take a 1.5 hour bus ride to get there. It was definitely not the most convenient option, and it was not the best school available by far.
    - Godel_unicode 5y ago
      Pretty sure this comment is about the fact that if you can pay for tutoring your kid is likely to do better in the thing they were tutored on, which in turn will make them more likely to get into. GT program. Keep in mind that all of this about population-level stuff, nobody is saying that poor people can't get into these programs, merely that the hill is steeper.
  - colpabar 5y ago
    When I was in 6th grade, I took a test that put me into algebra in 7th grade. The other options were pre-algebra, or remedial math. My parents didn't pay anyone, and this actually took place when I switched from private school to public school. How was that not a measure of my intelligence? Don't you think I would have missed out in terms of education if I was placed in the lowest tier, which is effectively what removing gifted programs does?
  - LocalH 5y ago
    Are you suggesting that private tutoring should be illegal?
keneda7 5y ago
I am confused here. The article is about gifted programs within schools. I don't see what banning private schools has to do with it?
- aaomidi 5y ago
  Finland's legislation to ban private schools actually changed how "gifted/special" schooling programs changed too. That's a starter point for people interested to go research it a bit more.
  - tehbeard 5y ago
    Finland must be doing g&t differently or you're completely misunderstanding, because in the UK there was never really a hard monetary barrier for the program.
  - l30n4da5 5y ago
    while I agree that banning private schools would force public school quality to rise, that doesn't really have much of anything to do with whether public schools have a gifted program or not.
  - keneda7 5y ago
    Okay I did a bit of research along the line you said. From what I can find it seems the basis of Finland's school system is that not all students are equal. Report cards are based on individualized grading by each teacher. (https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-am...) The idea behind banning gifted/special programs is to treat all students equally with equal opportunity and the same curriculum. Individualized grading by the teacher completely violates this idea. So I am still unsure what point you are trying make. Based on my research Finland clearly rejects that notion of teaching and grading everyone the same.
BitwiseFool 5y ago
>"If rich people knew the only way to get good schooling for their kids is to make schooling better entirely, then we'd have better schools." This is a dramatic oversimplification, to the point of being entirely misleading. Money =/= better schooling. Parental involvement, cultural attitudes about education, and not using a one-size-fits-all approach is what makes schooling improve. Is the implication is that if we forced rich people to send their kids to public schools, they'd use their rich person influence to raise taxes on themselves in order to get more funding?
- IggleSniggle 5y ago
  I think the implication is that if people with means to act with authority, power, and know-how on the day-to-day operations of the school actual sent their kids to the schools that all the kids go to (even the kids that don't have parents with authority or power or know-how), the schools that all kids go to would be just as good. Wealth is a clumsy proxy. A single-income home, with a parent deeply invested and active in the child's education (rather than how to get food on the table next week), implies a lot of unmeasured but real resources. Resources that are more readily invested in "communities with means." Leaving the communities without those same means deprived, deprived of resources that are not easily tracked by "how much money does the school get." Of course wealth can play a role too. Consider a poor neighborhood where some of the money from the school goes to paying for school lunches, where in the wealthier neighborhood students are typically sent with their own lunchbox. It's not just about the money. It's about the people that have the money. It's not something you can easily policy away, imho, because it's a systemic cultural issue, with a lot of messy tangles.
tsol 5y ago
This makes sense unless you want to send your kid to a school with a specialized education, like a religious or STEM-focused institute. There are a lot of reasons to use private schools, even if the public school education system were excellent
- splistud 5y ago
  And what is also important is that there is no reason to remove the choice from parents
anamax 5y ago
There are 25 Finns, they're all related, and they think that "diversity" is a Swede. Private tutors...
bpodgursky 5y ago
If the United States was Finland, we'd all be Finns! But see, we aren't.
kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago
The good PISA ranking of Finland could also be a result of having less immigrant kids than other countries in the comparison. (Before you downvote, it doesn't mean immigrant kids are stupid, but they often struggle more because of language barriers and poverty).
- cutemonster 5y ago
  Yes, for example, their parents cannot help them with their Finnish grammar homework The kids are (often? Usually?) better at reading and writing in the new language, than their parents
svieira 5y ago
This is anecdotal, but in one place where _this actually happened_ (NYC) things didn't work out exactly that way. There are more complications than just "money isn't flowing in": https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/podcasts/nice-white-parents-serial.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/podcasts/nice-white-paren...
motomoto 5y ago
Finland had a great educational system, that pushed them to the top of the PISA world ranking, changed it with a new "progressive" one, still got good scores the very next year because of pure inertia and became the darling of the Left worldwide. Right now their PISA scores are tanking, they barely made top 10 in 2018, ahead of Poland, and are behind all developed Asian countries, plus Estonia and Canada. That should explain why no one harps about how great Finnish educational innovations are lately. https://factsmaps.com/pisa-2018-worldwide-ranking-average-score-of-mathematics-science-reading/ https://factsmaps.com/pisa-2018-worldwide-ranking-average-sc...
erik_seaberg 5y ago
Monopolies underperform. Banning private schools leaves a public school that won’t improve because administrators aren’t faced with any competitive pressure (apart from a few private tutors).

MontyCarloHall 5y ago

Banning private schools is a completely different matter from banning public schools’ gifted programs, as is being discussed here. Apples to oranges.

aaomidi 5y ago
Not really. There shouldn't be "gifted programs", because they're not actually measuring "intelligence" but "how much money do the parents have to create extra schooling" What about this, why not have __every__ school provide personalized education to each person? Do we not have the money for that? Because we are __the richest country__.
- andrepd 5y ago
  But that's precisely what we're saying: gifted programs for any student, regardless of wealth. You have special education for students with needs that prevent them from being able to learn in a "normal" classroom, why not for gifted students as well?
  - aaomidi 5y ago
    > gifted programs for any student, regardless of wealth. Right "any student" - so please explain to me what causes the huge disproportionate racial gap in these schools? There's really two arguments here: - Biological - Non biological If anyone thinks its the first one, I'm not having this discussion with you. If you think it's the second one, are taxes going to gifted schools actually...helping society?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - colpabar 5y ago
      Do you really expect anyone to engage with you in good faith when you state you'll only accept certain answers?
      - aaomidi 5y ago
        Show me what I missed then. What could be an explanation of why there is a huge difference in racial demographics when it comes to these schools that don't fall into one of those two categories?
        colpabar 5y ago
        Idk, but there's lot to read. Here's an article I just found https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-black-white-test-score-gap-why-it-persists-and-what-can-be-done/ https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-black-white-test-scor... > Traditional explanations for the black-white test score gap have not stood up well to the test of time. During the 1960s, most liberals blamed the gap on some combination of black poverty, racial segregation, and inadequate funding of black schools. Since then, the number of affluent black families has grown dramatically, but their children’s test scores still lag far behind those of white children from equally affluent families. School desegregation may have played some role in reducing the black-white test score gap in the South, but school desegregation also seems to have costs for blacks, and when we compare initially similar students in today’s schools, those who attend desegregated schools learn only slightly more than those in segregated schools. Automatically blaming any discrepancy on outcomes between different racial groups on racism isn't helping anyone. It also doesn't really feel like you're looking to discuss or learn anything here, rather just to scold people for being racist. This is a tough question that doesn't have a solid answer yet.
        aaomidi 5y ago
        > rather just to scold people for being racist Where did I scold people, or call people racist? I said I'm not interested in the discussion if you think there is a _biological reason_ behind it.
- collegeburner 5y ago
  I was in some gifted programs that were based on an IQ cutoff. I know its an imperfect measurement and we can work on better ones but theres a difference between a private school (how much money) and a gifted program.
- l30n4da5 5y ago
  > Not really. There shouldn't be "gifted programs", because they're not actually measuring "intelligence" but "how much money do the parents have to create extra schooling" I think you have a misunderstanding about what a gifted program is. I went through a gifted program as a child and I can assure you that my parents paid no money for it, considering our income was so low that we qualified for free lunches in school.
  - xmaayy 5y ago
    I also went through a gifted program. It was at one of the most poorly funded schools, and I had to take a 1.5 hour bus ride to get there. It was definitely not the most convenient option, and it was not the best school available by far.
  - Godel_unicode 5y ago
    Pretty sure this comment is about the fact that if you can pay for tutoring your kid is likely to do better in the thing they were tutored on, which in turn will make them more likely to get into. GT program. Keep in mind that all of this about population-level stuff, nobody is saying that poor people can't get into these programs, merely that the hill is steeper.
- colpabar 5y ago
  When I was in 6th grade, I took a test that put me into algebra in 7th grade. The other options were pre-algebra, or remedial math. My parents didn't pay anyone, and this actually took place when I switched from private school to public school. How was that not a measure of my intelligence? Don't you think I would have missed out in terms of education if I was placed in the lowest tier, which is effectively what removing gifted programs does?
- LocalH 5y ago
  Are you suggesting that private tutoring should be illegal?

keneda7 5y ago

I am confused here. The article is about gifted programs within schools. I don't see what banning private schools has to do with it?

aaomidi 5y ago
Finland's legislation to ban private schools actually changed how "gifted/special" schooling programs changed too. That's a starter point for people interested to go research it a bit more.
- tehbeard 5y ago
  Finland must be doing g&t differently or you're completely misunderstanding, because in the UK there was never really a hard monetary barrier for the program.
- l30n4da5 5y ago
  while I agree that banning private schools would force public school quality to rise, that doesn't really have much of anything to do with whether public schools have a gifted program or not.
- keneda7 5y ago
  Okay I did a bit of research along the line you said. From what I can find it seems the basis of Finland's school system is that not all students are equal. Report cards are based on individualized grading by each teacher. (https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-americans-keep-ignoring-about-finlands-school-success/250564/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/12/what-am...) The idea behind banning gifted/special programs is to treat all students equally with equal opportunity and the same curriculum. Individualized grading by the teacher completely violates this idea. So I am still unsure what point you are trying make. Based on my research Finland clearly rejects that notion of teaching and grading everyone the same.

BitwiseFool 5y ago

>"If rich people knew the only way to get good schooling for their kids is to make schooling better entirely, then we'd have better schools." This is a dramatic oversimplification, to the point of being entirely misleading. Money =/= better schooling. Parental involvement, cultural attitudes about education, and not using a one-size-fits-all approach is what makes schooling improve. Is the implication is that if we forced rich people to send their kids to public schools, they'd use their rich person influence to raise taxes on themselves in order to get more funding?

IggleSniggle 5y ago
I think the implication is that if people with means to act with authority, power, and know-how on the day-to-day operations of the school actual sent their kids to the schools that all the kids go to (even the kids that don't have parents with authority or power or know-how), the schools that all kids go to would be just as good. Wealth is a clumsy proxy. A single-income home, with a parent deeply invested and active in the child's education (rather than how to get food on the table next week), implies a lot of unmeasured but real resources. Resources that are more readily invested in "communities with means." Leaving the communities without those same means deprived, deprived of resources that are not easily tracked by "how much money does the school get." Of course wealth can play a role too. Consider a poor neighborhood where some of the money from the school goes to paying for school lunches, where in the wealthier neighborhood students are typically sent with their own lunchbox. It's not just about the money. It's about the people that have the money. It's not something you can easily policy away, imho, because it's a systemic cultural issue, with a lot of messy tangles.

tsol 5y ago

This makes sense unless you want to send your kid to a school with a specialized education, like a religious or STEM-focused institute. There are a lot of reasons to use private schools, even if the public school education system were excellent

splistud 5y ago
And what is also important is that there is no reason to remove the choice from parents

anamax 5y ago

There are 25 Finns, they're all related, and they think that "diversity" is a Swede. Private tutors...

bpodgursky 5y ago

If the United States was Finland, we'd all be Finns! But see, we aren't.

kkjjkgjjgg 5y ago

The good PISA ranking of Finland could also be a result of having less immigrant kids than other countries in the comparison. (Before you downvote, it doesn't mean immigrant kids are stupid, but they often struggle more because of language barriers and poverty).

cutemonster 5y ago
Yes, for example, their parents cannot help them with their Finnish grammar homework The kids are (often? Usually?) better at reading and writing in the new language, than their parents

svieira 5y ago

This is anecdotal, but in one place where _this actually happened_ (NYC) things didn't work out exactly that way. There are more complications than just "money isn't flowing in": https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/podcasts/nice-white-parents-serial.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/23/podcasts/nice-white-paren...

motomoto 5y ago

Finland had a great educational system, that pushed them to the top of the PISA world ranking, changed it with a new "progressive" one, still got good scores the very next year because of pure inertia and became the darling of the Left worldwide. Right now their PISA scores are tanking, they barely made top 10 in 2018, ahead of Poland, and are behind all developed Asian countries, plus Estonia and Canada. That should explain why no one harps about how great Finnish educational innovations are lately. https://factsmaps.com/pisa-2018-worldwide-ranking-average-score-of-mathematics-science-reading/ https://factsmaps.com/pisa-2018-worldwide-ranking-average-sc...

erik_seaberg 5y ago

Monopolies underperform. Banning private schools leaves a public school that won’t improve because administrators aren’t faced with any competitive pressure (apart from a few private tutors).