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Could this also be a result of forced vaccinations on healthcare workers (who were on the front lines for us early in the pandemic) who then move to states with

Could this also be a result of forced vaccinations on healthcare workers (who were on the front lines for us early in the pandemic) who then move to states without mandates.

kasey_junk 5y ago
The example was a nurse who moved to California. Pay, as the article states, seems to be a better explanation than a political boogeyman.
- LMYahooTFY 5y ago
  Nurses were on strike in Texas? How is a mandate that some are against a 'boogeyman'? Is a law requiring employers to provide health insurance a 'boogeyman'? These are simple things that obviously exist. And one nurse moving doesn't indicate much of anything.
cabbageoverload 5y ago
Do you have information that supports this theory or is it just a guess?
- captnObvious 5y ago
  Worked in hospitals for years. The day my flu vaccine expired I had to go get another or I would be in violation of my contract. Has been like that for decades.
  - lostmsu 5y ago
    Have you ever seen people quitting over that?
    - captnObvious 5y ago
      Not before it got politicized.
- clarge1120 5y ago
  Does every question have to be supported by verifiable information, or is it just an offhand question?
KittenInABox 5y ago
The number of people who leave because of vaccine mandates are a few percentage points. It's been borne out again and again as mandates are put in effect that the vast majority end up complying and only a few percentage points end up leaving from them. This is a much bigger phenomenon related to how hospital administration cuts nursing to the bone and the lack of organized labor pushing for safer standards of work and better working conditions.
- politician 5y ago
  Wait, there isn't union for nurses?!
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    There are nursing unions. Not every facility is unionized.
ceejayoz 5y ago
The mandate is Federal - any facility that takes Medicaid or Medicare is subject to it. That's pretty much everything except a few small private practices. Traveling nurses will almost always be required to be vaccinated.
- bluedino 5y ago
  They were among the first to be required
- adolph 5y ago
  Apparently the mandate is in progress and doesn’t yet exist: A CMS spokesperson told Fierce Healthcare that the agency is currently in the active rule-making process and cannot comment on any specifics of the pending healthcare provider regulations but did note that there will be a 60-day comment period immediately following its publication in the Federal Register. https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/hospitals/conflicting-federal-state-covid-19-vaccine-requirements-have-hospitals-trapped https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/hospitals/conflicting-feder...
MattGaiser 5y ago
AFAIK, mandatory vaccinations for healthcare workers aren't new.
- fidesomnes 5y ago
  FWIW, experimental gene therapy's mandated by emergency use authorization only are.
- StanislavPetrov 5y ago
  One of the issues is that in the USA (as opposed to Europe and other countries that prioritize science over politics) there are no exemptions for people who have recovered from covid and have natural immunity, which has shown to be more effective than the vaccine.
benjaminwootton 5y ago
Amazing how even raising this as a question gets you downvoted. Yes, I’m sure it’s a factor, and needlessly so considering the vaccine seems to have a negligible effect on transmission. Prepared for my own downvotes after sharing some particularly uncomfortable truths.
- blacktriangle 5y ago
  I love how you both acknowledge that health care workers quitting over forced vaccination is an issue while immediately dismissing their actual experience of having worked through both pre and post vaccine covid world and first hand seeing the impact of mass vacination. If enough health care workers are willing to walk away from their jobs rather than take a vaccine, maybe you should take their observations seriously?
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    > If enough health care workers are willing to walk away from their jobs rather than take a vaccine, maybe you should take their observations seriously? If you value their opinions in that way, you should get the vaccine. https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19 https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-sur... "The American Medical Association (AMA) today released a new survey (PDF) among practicing physicians that shows more than 96 percent of surveyed U.S. physicians have been fully vaccinated for COVID-19, with no significant difference in vaccination rates across regions. Of the physicians who are not yet vaccinated, an additional 45 percent do plan to get vaccinated."
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > Amazing how even raising this as a question gets you downvoted. That's because it's readily debunked. Nurses largely can't evade the vaccine mandates by moving; virtually all healthcare facilities are subject to the Federal vaccine mandate. > Yes, I’m sure it’s a factor, and needlessly so considering the vaccine seems to have a negligible effect on transmission. That doesn't seem to be true. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccinated-people-are-less-likely-spread-covid-new-research-finds-n1280583 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccinated-people... "Both vaccines reduced transmission, although they were more effective against the alpha variant compared to the delta variant. When infected with the delta variant, a given contact was 65 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated with two doses of the Pfizer vaccine. With AstraZeneca, a given contact was 36 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated."
clarge1120 5y ago
This is a valid question that does appear politically motivated. But, the downvoting does appear politically motivated. If we look at the from-state/to-state patterns, we may see evidence, one way or the other, that vaccine mandates cause healthcare workers to change jobs. We may see that the mandates do not cause any significant change. Any significant change (15% or more) in the number of healthcare workers can result in a change in healthcare quality from one state to another. If quality of healthcare changes significantly (positively or negatively) in a state, due to vaccine mandates, I want to know: especially if it is in my state.
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  You are not gonna get this type of data until years later, if ever. We don't have realtime regional data that is comprehensive, we have local anecdotes and then national data without regional breakdowns. National data with regional breakdowns always lags by quite a bit, and unless there is institutional demand for such data, it just wont be collected at all. One possibility is to look at BLS employment data by regions, but it's still really tricky to tease these types of effects out of that.

Could this also be a result of forced vaccinations on healthcare workers (who were on the front lines for us early in the pandemic) who then move to states without mandates.

kasey_junk 5y ago

The example was a nurse who moved to California. Pay, as the article states, seems to be a better explanation than a political boogeyman.

LMYahooTFY 5y ago
Nurses were on strike in Texas? How is a mandate that some are against a 'boogeyman'? Is a law requiring employers to provide health insurance a 'boogeyman'? These are simple things that obviously exist. And one nurse moving doesn't indicate much of anything.

cabbageoverload 5y ago

Do you have information that supports this theory or is it just a guess?

captnObvious 5y ago
Worked in hospitals for years. The day my flu vaccine expired I had to go get another or I would be in violation of my contract. Has been like that for decades.
- lostmsu 5y ago
  Have you ever seen people quitting over that?
  - captnObvious 5y ago
    Not before it got politicized.
clarge1120 5y ago
Does every question have to be supported by verifiable information, or is it just an offhand question?

KittenInABox 5y ago

The number of people who leave because of vaccine mandates are a few percentage points. It's been borne out again and again as mandates are put in effect that the vast majority end up complying and only a few percentage points end up leaving from them. This is a much bigger phenomenon related to how hospital administration cuts nursing to the bone and the lack of organized labor pushing for safer standards of work and better working conditions.

politician 5y ago
Wait, there isn't union for nurses?!
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  There are nursing unions. Not every facility is unionized.

ceejayoz 5y ago

The mandate is Federal - any facility that takes Medicaid or Medicare is subject to it. That's pretty much everything except a few small private practices. Traveling nurses will almost always be required to be vaccinated.

bluedino 5y ago
They were among the first to be required
adolph 5y ago
Apparently the mandate is in progress and doesn’t yet exist: A CMS spokesperson told Fierce Healthcare that the agency is currently in the active rule-making process and cannot comment on any specifics of the pending healthcare provider regulations but did note that there will be a 60-day comment period immediately following its publication in the Federal Register. https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/hospitals/conflicting-federal-state-covid-19-vaccine-requirements-have-hospitals-trapped https://www.fiercehealthcare.com/hospitals/conflicting-feder...

MattGaiser 5y ago

AFAIK, mandatory vaccinations for healthcare workers aren't new.

fidesomnes 5y ago
FWIW, experimental gene therapy's mandated by emergency use authorization only are.
StanislavPetrov 5y ago
One of the issues is that in the USA (as opposed to Europe and other countries that prioritize science over politics) there are no exemptions for people who have recovered from covid and have natural immunity, which has shown to be more effective than the vaccine.

benjaminwootton 5y ago

Amazing how even raising this as a question gets you downvoted. Yes, I’m sure it’s a factor, and needlessly so considering the vaccine seems to have a negligible effect on transmission. Prepared for my own downvotes after sharing some particularly uncomfortable truths.

blacktriangle 5y ago
I love how you both acknowledge that health care workers quitting over forced vaccination is an issue while immediately dismissing their actual experience of having worked through both pre and post vaccine covid world and first hand seeing the impact of mass vacination. If enough health care workers are willing to walk away from their jobs rather than take a vaccine, maybe you should take their observations seriously?
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > If enough health care workers are willing to walk away from their jobs rather than take a vaccine, maybe you should take their observations seriously? If you value their opinions in that way, you should get the vaccine. https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-survey-shows-over-96-doctors-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19 https://www.ama-assn.org/press-center/press-releases/ama-sur... "The American Medical Association (AMA) today released a new survey (PDF) among practicing physicians that shows more than 96 percent of surveyed U.S. physicians have been fully vaccinated for COVID-19, with no significant difference in vaccination rates across regions. Of the physicians who are not yet vaccinated, an additional 45 percent do plan to get vaccinated."
ceejayoz 5y ago
> Amazing how even raising this as a question gets you downvoted. That's because it's readily debunked. Nurses largely can't evade the vaccine mandates by moving; virtually all healthcare facilities are subject to the Federal vaccine mandate. > Yes, I’m sure it’s a factor, and needlessly so considering the vaccine seems to have a negligible effect on transmission. That doesn't seem to be true. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccinated-people-are-less-likely-spread-covid-new-research-finds-n1280583 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccinated-people... "Both vaccines reduced transmission, although they were more effective against the alpha variant compared to the delta variant. When infected with the delta variant, a given contact was 65 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated with two doses of the Pfizer vaccine. With AstraZeneca, a given contact was 36 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated."

clarge1120 5y ago

This is a valid question that does appear politically motivated. But, the downvoting does appear politically motivated. If we look at the from-state/to-state patterns, we may see evidence, one way or the other, that vaccine mandates cause healthcare workers to change jobs. We may see that the mandates do not cause any significant change. Any significant change (15% or more) in the number of healthcare workers can result in a change in healthcare quality from one state to another. If quality of healthcare changes significantly (positively or negatively) in a state, due to vaccine mandates, I want to know: especially if it is in my state.

rsj_hn 5y ago
You are not gonna get this type of data until years later, if ever. We don't have realtime regional data that is comprehensive, we have local anecdotes and then national data without regional breakdowns. National data with regional breakdowns always lags by quite a bit, and unless there is institutional demand for such data, it just wont be collected at all. One possibility is to look at BLS employment data by regions, but it's still really tricky to tease these types of effects out of that.