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> That would be depressing. If I’m away from hoke overnight I want to get he worked done. I’d rather babysit a system for 15 hours a day for 3 days then go home

> That would be depressing. If I’m away from hoke overnight I want to get he worked done. I’d rather babysit a system for 15 hours a day for 3 days then go home and have a colleague do it for the next 3, rather than have to do 6 days with both of us on site. Honestly I don't understand your comment!? Why do you have to babysit the system? My suggestion was an extension to the existing clock app that OP made. Nothing prevents OP from making settings storable via localStorage, so I don't know where your assumptions come from?

midasuni 5y ago
Sorry posting from a phone which has terrible autocorrect and hadn’t edited. In repose to “illegal to work more than 10 hours in Germany” I had a call last night to go to a field in the middle of nowhere for 3 days to look after an event as the colleague who was supposed to do it has covid. This means sitting on site doing whatever I want, until/unless something goes wrong. The coverage needed is 12 hours a day, so that’s fine, I do the job, get paid the overtime, and another colleague takes over on Saturday to do the same job for a few days. If I was limited to 10 hour days I couldn’t cover 12 hours, we’d need two people on site, and that means I’d have to be away from home twice as long. That’s not a good thing for me
- wongarsu 5y ago
  In Germany we would put three people on the job for 8 hours each. Working more than 8 hours is already the exception, 10 is the hard maximum (except for some exceptions like caring for people or management). Germany still has a lot of blue-collar jobs, where limiting work time really cuts down on accident rates. Of course any law will catch some innocent cases in the cross-fire.
  - wink 5y ago
    Germany is not some magical place where people never work more than 10h. That part of the law you quoted is only about regular shifts, whereas OP's example of being on site and basically waiting until something happens would very much fall under § 7.4, as being on standby, also it doesn't sound like this happens every week. Yes, in general I won't complain, certainly not about those restrictions - but it's simply wrong to act as if no one had exceptional longer shifts, or what the OP did would be illegal.
  - midasuni 5y ago
    So 3 people How about if I’m somewhere worse than Norfolk (where I am now). Say I have a certain amount of work to do in Gaza - say 180 hours of it. Do I send 3 people to do the job in 4 or 5 days, or do I keep them there twice as long or send twice as many people - doubling the length and footprint in country, massively increasing the risk (as well as more people being away from home for longer). As the employee I would not be looking forward to spending a full evening in the Al Deira every night, assuming their generator is working. I’d rather spend time at home. How does it even work with travel - I’ve spent 6 hours getting through customs and immigration in some places, let alone the flight to get there.
    - wongarsu 5y ago
      Travel time is (as you probably guessed) somewhat more complicated. The short version is that travel can happen outside your work time, as long as either immediately before or after the travel you aren't working (so e.g. you can travel from home to a customer outside work time, but traveling from work to a customer is work time). As for traveling to Gaza: I guess you need more people or longer. The main concern of the law aren't the exceptional once-in-a-blue-moon cases but the everyday problem of workers. A better, safer work environment for millions is worth having some hypothetical people in Gaza for a bit longer.
- cookiengineer 5y ago
  The regulation in Germany for the 10 hours hard limit is actually quite important, as it's implemented via the Arbeitszeitgesetz (ArbZG) [1]. If you have an accident and it turns out you worked more than 10 hours that day, social insurance won't cover it and you're basically broke for the rest of your life if it was an accident with say, a hospital stay and an emergency operation. Also the 10 hours max are only possible if on average within the surrounding 24 weeks (6 months) you work less than 8 hours. If it's more than that, you're also not covered by insurance. My point was originally just pointing to this example that 12 hour or longer shifts aren't possible in some countries due to endangering the social insurance there dependent on local laws. The addition I suggested had in mind that you could see "which shift" is working there from when to when so that it's easier to coordinate in such scenarios. [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbzg/BJNR117100994.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbzg/BJNR117100994.html
  - detaro 5y ago
    > social insurance won't cover it I don't think that's true, although you hear it often. It's true that accidents due to exhaustion can be a problem, but only if they can prove that your exhaustion was not work-related or that you refused offered alternatives, then the automatic accident coverage doesn't apply.

midasuni 5y ago

Sorry posting from a phone which has terrible autocorrect and hadn’t edited. In repose to “illegal to work more than 10 hours in Germany” I had a call last night to go to a field in the middle of nowhere for 3 days to look after an event as the colleague who was supposed to do it has covid. This means sitting on site doing whatever I want, until/unless something goes wrong. The coverage needed is 12 hours a day, so that’s fine, I do the job, get paid the overtime, and another colleague takes over on Saturday to do the same job for a few days. If I was limited to 10 hour days I couldn’t cover 12 hours, we’d need two people on site, and that means I’d have to be away from home twice as long. That’s not a good thing for me

wongarsu 5y ago
In Germany we would put three people on the job for 8 hours each. Working more than 8 hours is already the exception, 10 is the hard maximum (except for some exceptions like caring for people or management). Germany still has a lot of blue-collar jobs, where limiting work time really cuts down on accident rates. Of course any law will catch some innocent cases in the cross-fire.
- wink 5y ago
  Germany is not some magical place where people never work more than 10h. That part of the law you quoted is only about regular shifts, whereas OP's example of being on site and basically waiting until something happens would very much fall under § 7.4, as being on standby, also it doesn't sound like this happens every week. Yes, in general I won't complain, certainly not about those restrictions - but it's simply wrong to act as if no one had exceptional longer shifts, or what the OP did would be illegal.
- midasuni 5y ago
  So 3 people How about if I’m somewhere worse than Norfolk (where I am now). Say I have a certain amount of work to do in Gaza - say 180 hours of it. Do I send 3 people to do the job in 4 or 5 days, or do I keep them there twice as long or send twice as many people - doubling the length and footprint in country, massively increasing the risk (as well as more people being away from home for longer). As the employee I would not be looking forward to spending a full evening in the Al Deira every night, assuming their generator is working. I’d rather spend time at home. How does it even work with travel - I’ve spent 6 hours getting through customs and immigration in some places, let alone the flight to get there.
  - wongarsu 5y ago
    Travel time is (as you probably guessed) somewhat more complicated. The short version is that travel can happen outside your work time, as long as either immediately before or after the travel you aren't working (so e.g. you can travel from home to a customer outside work time, but traveling from work to a customer is work time). As for traveling to Gaza: I guess you need more people or longer. The main concern of the law aren't the exceptional once-in-a-blue-moon cases but the everyday problem of workers. A better, safer work environment for millions is worth having some hypothetical people in Gaza for a bit longer.
cookiengineer 5y ago
The regulation in Germany for the 10 hours hard limit is actually quite important, as it's implemented via the Arbeitszeitgesetz (ArbZG) [1]. If you have an accident and it turns out you worked more than 10 hours that day, social insurance won't cover it and you're basically broke for the rest of your life if it was an accident with say, a hospital stay and an emergency operation. Also the 10 hours max are only possible if on average within the surrounding 24 weeks (6 months) you work less than 8 hours. If it's more than that, you're also not covered by insurance. My point was originally just pointing to this example that 12 hour or longer shifts aren't possible in some countries due to endangering the social insurance there dependent on local laws. The addition I suggested had in mind that you could see "which shift" is working there from when to when so that it's easier to coordinate in such scenarios. [1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbzg/BJNR117100994.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbzg/BJNR117100994.html
- detaro 5y ago
  > social insurance won't cover it I don't think that's true, although you hear it often. It's true that accidents due to exhaustion can be a problem, but only if they can prove that your exhaustion was not work-related or that you refused offered alternatives, then the automatic accident coverage doesn't apply.