5 ms·

Well, I'm not sure UBI really solves the issue. Also, replacing labour with machines is not really the problem here; agriculture and industry still require lot

Well, I'm not sure UBI really solves the issue. Also, replacing labour with machines is not really the problem here; agriculture and industry still require lots of people, it's just that those sectors aren't the ones making the profits. The profits are going to software and finance, but we still need the agriculture and industry to run, and they still need lots of people.

coralreef 5y ago
Drones, automated harvesting, self driving trucks, software etc. will make their way into those industries eventually. If wage growth isn't coming organically for whatever reason, then some form of wage subsidy will need to occur. Or, you just have large swaths of lower middle class people in a growing state of contempt for the city dwelling elites.
- cscurmudgeon 5y ago
  > Drones, automated harvesting, self driving trucks, software etc. will make their way into those industries eventually. We can't sit around starving till then while paying people to do no work. Well-intention but top down policies meeting agriculture has almost always resulted in mass starvation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–1933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–1933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortages_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortages_in_Venezuela
  - germinalphrase 5y ago
    Our agriculture industry is heavily subsidized throughout by “top down policies”.
    - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
      Subsidies are very different from micromanagement. Also, the US is not even the top country when it comes to agri subsidies. https://www.hinrichfoundation.com/research/article/protectionism/agricultural-subsidies/ https://www.hinrichfoundation.com/research/article/protectio...
  - antifa 5y ago
    "Only communists try to solve problems" is not a good argument.
    - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
      Yes, and that was not my argument. The argument was "only communists try to solve OTHER people's problems for them and end up creating more problems for OTHER people than they started with"
      - antifa 5y ago
        Congrats on defining the vast majority of good people as "communists" while simultaneously virtue signaling "communism bad".
        cscurmudgeon 5y ago
        Congrats on not following one iota of my argument. I personally think communism caused mass starvations that killed millions are bad. If that makes me an evil capitalist, so be it. (As someone who has lived through one such micro famine in a socialist country, I feel I am entitled to that opinion.)
        antifa 5y ago
        Your "argument" was a low quality, bad faith, thinly veiled "You know who else enacted policy? Stalin!".
        Frost1x 5y ago
        You know you don't have to go all the way to communism to fix the problems we're seeing. You simply need to take a step back from extreme capitalism were currently experiencing with a little bit of revamping. It worked fairly well, let's just fix some minor things that seem to be systemic problems with capitalism unless we want to be the poster child of how horrible capitalism is when it fails just as the Soviet Union is the poster child of failures of extreme communism.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    >We can't sit around starving till then while paying people to do no work. I already suggested giving these people work instead of income.
onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
> it's just that those sectors aren't the ones making the profits. Coincidentally - they're also the most competitive / not monopolies.
thereare5lights 5y ago
> Well, I'm not sure UBI really solves the issue. You can't just say that and then not say why you think that.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
All of those technologies had extremely low investment due to the competition with an oft-abused migrant worker class sacrificing for their families. This was short term thinking because the human race would have been better off with more investment here.

coralreef 5y ago

Drones, automated harvesting, self driving trucks, software etc. will make their way into those industries eventually. If wage growth isn't coming organically for whatever reason, then some form of wage subsidy will need to occur. Or, you just have large swaths of lower middle class people in a growing state of contempt for the city dwelling elites.

cscurmudgeon 5y ago
> Drones, automated harvesting, self driving trucks, software etc. will make their way into those industries eventually. We can't sit around starving till then while paying people to do no work. Well-intention but top down policies meeting agriculture has almost always resulted in mass starvation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–1933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932–1933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortages_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortages_in_Venezuela
- germinalphrase 5y ago
  Our agriculture industry is heavily subsidized throughout by “top down policies”.
  - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
    Subsidies are very different from micromanagement. Also, the US is not even the top country when it comes to agri subsidies. https://www.hinrichfoundation.com/research/article/protectionism/agricultural-subsidies/ https://www.hinrichfoundation.com/research/article/protectio...
- antifa 5y ago
  "Only communists try to solve problems" is not a good argument.
  - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
    Yes, and that was not my argument. The argument was "only communists try to solve OTHER people's problems for them and end up creating more problems for OTHER people than they started with"
    - antifa 5y ago
      Congrats on defining the vast majority of good people as "communists" while simultaneously virtue signaling "communism bad".
      - cscurmudgeon 5y ago
        Congrats on not following one iota of my argument. I personally think communism caused mass starvations that killed millions are bad. If that makes me an evil capitalist, so be it. (As someone who has lived through one such micro famine in a socialist country, I feel I am entitled to that opinion.)
        antifa 5y ago
        Your "argument" was a low quality, bad faith, thinly veiled "You know who else enacted policy? Stalin!".
        Frost1x 5y ago
        You know you don't have to go all the way to communism to fix the problems we're seeing. You simply need to take a step back from extreme capitalism were currently experiencing with a little bit of revamping. It worked fairly well, let's just fix some minor things that seem to be systemic problems with capitalism unless we want to be the poster child of how horrible capitalism is when it fails just as the Soviet Union is the poster child of failures of extreme communism.
- imtringued 5y ago
  >We can't sit around starving till then while paying people to do no work. I already suggested giving these people work instead of income.

onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago

> it's just that those sectors aren't the ones making the profits. Coincidentally - they're also the most competitive / not monopolies.

thereare5lights 5y ago

> Well, I'm not sure UBI really solves the issue. You can't just say that and then not say why you think that.

mensetmanusman 5y ago

All of those technologies had extremely low investment due to the competition with an oft-abused migrant worker class sacrificing for their families. This was short term thinking because the human race would have been better off with more investment here.