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> This has been made a lot more difficult with the electronic log books. I think this kind of thing is going to be huge in the next 50 years. We have a lot of
by aeturnum 5y ago
> This has been made a lot more difficult with the electronic log books.
I think this kind of thing is going to be huge in the next 50 years. We have a lot of laws and standards that, in effect, allowed people to cheat a little but not too much (or break a few traffic laws but not too many, etc). All in all, that system sucked - it placed all the burden and risk on individuals to figure out how to cheat enough to make the system livable - but it was stable as a system.
We are going to need to do a lot of work to find new equilibrium points where the various parties can cheat less. It will be made especially difficult because technology penetrates industries more quickly these days so it would be best if everything changed at once, but that also makes it more difficult.
- Y_Y 5y agoMaybe the state will have to outsource enforcement of these issues so that it doesn't have to admit to allowing some rule breaking. Anyone want to co-found Selective-Enforcement-as-a-Service?
- tehjoker 5y agoThat's called "the cops".
- WarOnPrivacy 5y agoAlso Public Service Commissions.
- black6 5y agoThe anecdotes I hear about "cheating the system" before electronic logs are mostly along the lines of: stuck in stand-still traffic for 30 minutes, I'll log it as a break. Whereas according to the electronic log you're still driving.
- UncleEntity 5y agoThat’s not even close to how it used to work. Say you have a truck governed at 68mph which means you can log an average of 65mph without raising any eyebrows. So what we would do is log the miles you drove/65 and not the actual time you drove. Or, how I used to run, keep your logbook behind so you can backfill the driving hours and breaks so you can eventually be legal again — usually at a shipper or receiver you could catch up as they commonly would keep you there for 6-8 hours. What’s the buzzword, eventually consistency? Not even mentioning “loose leaf” logbooks where one could rewrite whole days to gain hours. Those days are long gone now…
- thrashh 5y agoI actually vehemently disagree and will fight to allow people to break the rules. I love that gray areas exist. Gray areas are where art and ingenuity is born. Gray areas allow me to break the rules at work to push improvements. Gray areas are what I use to show people how things can be better. I hope we never reach a state where technology actively defeats us. The only time that I think it’s responsible to have total enforcement is when the rules perfectly capture reality and every facet of it …which to say is never.
- alistairSH 5y agoIn systems that are safety-critical? Yikes. The reason we now have electronic tracking of freight truckers is because they used to be notorious for taking uppers and driving as long as possible, causing all sorts of nasty accidents. That isn't ingenuity, that's selfish greed, both on the part of the driver and the dispatch companies employing them.
- wonder_er 5y ago> That isn't ingenuity, that's selfish greed, both on the part of the driver and the dispatch companies employing them. I believe it's "selfish greed" on behalf of the company, but a reasonable response to difficult constraints, on behalf of the driver.
- animal_spirits 5y ago
- spoonjim 5y agoWould you support speed limit enforcement by checking license plates at the beginning of a stretch of highway and at the end and auto-ticketing anyone who averaged over the speed limit?
- atatatat 5y agoIf you raise the speed limit 15% to where it should be, sure.
- vkou 5y agoTo what, 55 mph? It's the most fuel-efficient speed for the majority of vehicles, and is far less likely to kill people in an accident, than a collision at 70*1.15 = 80mph.
- leetcrew 5y agowhy stop there? pretty much any form of transportation is more dangerous and/or generates more emissions that humans on their own two legs. collectively, we have decided to trade some of that away to actually get places in a reasonable amount of time. but if you don't feel comfortable driving in 65+ mph traffic, there are plenty of surface roads that run parallel to interstates.
- phillc73 5y agoAverage speed cameras? They already exist in the UK and certain parts of Europe I’m familiar with.
- milankragujevic 5y agoYes, can confirm, such cameras exist in Serbia and generate electronic tickets available to the vehicle owner on a government website if the calculated average speed is above allowed.
- aeturnum 5y agoI do not think the method you are describing would usefully increase safety so it seems like a bad idea to me.
- joe_the_user 5y agoAll in all, that system sucked - it placed all the burden and risk on individuals to figure out how to cheat enough to make the system livable - but it was stable as a system. - I think stability depends on what time frame you look at. Pushing how much time you spend driving, how little you sleep and so-forth may be stable for some period (weeks, months, a few years..) but it's not stable for a person longish term. Letting wages drift downward, so you wind-up hiring people with more problems (say, amphetamine addiction) may also be short-term stable but not long term stable. The actually instability of the situation I think is illustrated by "chameleon carrier". Companies that shutdown and restart when they accumulate too safety violations.[1] The thing about the situation is when things are being continually jury rigged to keep people working in the most profitable conditions for the carriers and the worst conditions for them, it's the opposite of stable, it's extremely fragile. [1] https://www.teletracnavman.com/resources/blog/the-hunt-for-chameleon-carriers https://www.teletracnavman.com/resources/blog/the-hunt-for-c...
- aeturnum 5y agoSaying the system as a whole is stable does not mean there are no unstable parts. Goods get delivered at an acceptable cost with an acceptable loss rate - even with chameleon carriers and any other bad actors that exist. Suddenly changing how easy it is to break the rules, without changing anything else, could destabilize that equilibrium. > I think stability depends on what time frame you look at. What is the timeframe that you are thinking of where our goods delivery network broke down due to individual rule breaking (as opposed to, say, a global pandemic)?
- joe_the_user 5y agoWhat is the timeframe that you are thinking of... -- When we're talking of a system, "stability" is roughly the property that a small perturbation in the system causes it to return to the position that it was previously in. The pandemic was significant shock but the notable thing we see is that the system. ...where our goods delivery network broke down due to individual rule breaking (as opposed to, say, a global pandemic)? The individual rule-breaking (working more hours than a person could stand) still allowed day functioning of the system but it created situation it was easy for a lot of people to just quit driving and hard to find more drivers to replace them. Hence, the system was fragile to shock.
- chiefalchemist 5y agoNext 50 yrs? This will be lucky to still be an issue in 5 to 10 yrs. Soon enough, the long haul routes will be autonomous. Humans will handle the short haul from some rural / suburban hub to the suburban / urban final destination. Autonomous might not be able to do "the last mile" but that's not what cause ppl to not want to be drivers.
- aeturnum 5y agoI'm personally skeptical about the immediate practicality of autonomous driving, but either way, I was not just speaking about driving. I was talking about nearly every area of rule around 'public order.'
- chiefalchemist 5y agoLong haul is practical and doable. Full door to door autonomous is unnecessary in the short term. Simply cracking the long haul nut is going to be significant.
- interestica 5y agoI think we will see "micro fines" and electronic car systems in the next 10 years. Go over the speed limit for a certain period of time (eg, 10 mins)? Microfine. $5. Park in a no parking area for too long? Microfine. Don't signal your turn? Microfine, $0.50. Yes, a nightmare.
- aeturnum 5y agoThankfully, in the context of laws in the US, I believe the 4th amendment may be helpful here. But other places will not be as lucky.
- hooande 5y agoThis is a terrible idea. It fixes the cost for speeding or not signaling to something that a well off person can easily afford. Even I would consider just paying a $5 fine in order to speed to get to an important meeting, etc. A $500 fine for 10 minutes of speeding would make me think twice
- leetcrew 5y agoI think that actually illustrates the above commenter's point about gray areas? the highway does not devolve into lethal chaos when people exceed the limit by 10 mph. even 20 mph over is not so bad when the relative speed among vehicles is low. or on the other hand, a few outliers are not a huge problem when proper lane discipline is maintained (ie, don't pass on the right, keep right except to pass). it's not a big deal if most people occasionally speed to get to an important appointment. it's also not catastrophic if a few people who can afford it take the hit and speed everywhere. mostly, it just offends our sense of fairness.
- joe_the_user 5y agoThe thing that would hold that back is the huge stock of existing analogue/gas vehicles. For all the talk of going electric, no one is going to buy everyone a new electric car and no one is going to just prevent the gas cars from driving since the economy needs people to work. Not that I'm in favor of the CO2 pollution this implies - though I'm not in favor of your Orwellian scenario either, which would be plausible otherwise.