5 ms·

i already went to college, and worked hard to get my CS degree. i don’t do and should not be doing these interviews, and everyone else should do the same. it is

• benlivengood 5y ago
  You worked hard but the rich kid next to you in class paid someone to do their homework and steal test keys and maybe even bribed a professor or two. Companies need to filter them out.
  • b20000 5y ago
    you can just ask for projects they worked on and look at their code and discuss that. also, you can’t bribe anyone at universities where i’m from.
    • Jensson 5y ago
      Or you can ask them to code up some algorithms. The companies paying the best choose to do this, and they grew and became much larger than the companies that didn't do it this way, so now most companies do it this way.
      • b20000 5y ago
        leetcode BS interviews are a quite recent fad.
        • pedrosorio 5y ago
          Yeah, if you’re old enough to consider Microsoft doing them in the 90s a recent fad, sure.
    • tester34 5y ago
      you'd be shocked how much bullshit occurs on universities across the world, even in EU.
• IshKebab 5y ago
  So do you think people who haven't done a CS degree shouldn't be allowed to code? Or should we make them do whiteboard questions but not anyone who did a CS degree? What about people that got a 3rd from a poor university? And what if we need practical programming experience, not just algorithmic CS stuff? Can we ask you questions about that?
  • b20000 5y ago
    if you can graduate a CS program without hands on experience your program is broken
    • davidrupp 5y ago
      Obligatory quote (attributed to Dijkstra, but see [1]): "Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes." It's possible to be a good computer scientist without being a good programmer, and vice versa. [1] https://quoteinvestigator.com/2021/04/02/computer-science/ https://quoteinvestigator.com/2021/04/02/computer-science/
    • tester34 5y ago
      You can definitely graduate from CS and be poor programmer, hell you can even work decade in industry and be poor programmer - also known as "10 * 1 year experience"
• JohnWhigham 5y ago
  What we should/shouldn't do doesn't matter. The fact is that because CS has exploded in the past decade, and because there are hundreds of applicants to most jobs, there needs to be some sort of programming litmus test to thin the herd. That's why I'm OK with FAANG companies having multiple rounds of interviews; they need to because so many people want to work there. What is the alternative? The problem is when some dogshit startup that got funding 2 weeks ago copies Google's process. That I don't know how we can fix.
  • b20000 5y ago
    you can thin the herd by demanding prior experience and actual software built and ask to see some source code and discuss that. much better and more fair to those who are experienced.
• TameAntelope 5y ago
  Not knowing the program you graduated from, I have zero faith that you have any idea whatsoever how to actually be a productive member of a development team as a result of that degree. If you refused to answer technical questions during an interview because you believed your degree should be enough, you would not get a job from me, period. I don't know if that's true universally, but I expect it to be nearly so.
  • b20000 5y ago
    good for you. your mindset is only working to the advantage of your employer (maybe i should say pimp). no one else in our industry. in our program we had to work in team on projects besides doing our own. maybe you went to a shitty program.
    • TameAntelope 5y ago
      I am the employer, and I didn’t go to any program. But more importantly, if you think a group project is anything at all reflective of daily software development, you’re exactly the candidate I’m trying to put under a microscope. Honestly, your downright terrible attitude would disqualify you well before any technical questions.
      • b20000 5y ago
        good, go to a program, then come back and we can have a discussion.
        • deleted 5y ago
          [deleted]
        • Jensson 5y ago
          Do you tell the interviewer that when they ask you if you can work in a team? They can't know the quality of your education or the merits of your experience, and you can't demand that they go out and look at exactly how the courses you took are structured or how those groups are evaluated or run. It doesn't matter if the program you personally took was good preparation, if most programs sucks then people will assume that your program also sucked since you have no other way to separate yourself from those who went to those sucky programs.
• whimsicalism 5y ago
  I will happily do them so that I don't have to compete on wages with people who just got a degree in college and feel like the salary is now owed to them. I enjoy LC, I'm good at it, and I find most of the people complaining about it to be the same sort of people as parents who would complain about how their kid "was very smart, but just not a good test-taker" if only those elite colleges would just take notice.
  • rajin444 5y ago
    LC is too easily gamed and I’ve been burned by candidates that did great on those style questions. Your comparison is actually perfect - elite colleges pass on bright students all the time and often just filter for those willing to play the game.
    • whimsicalism 5y ago
      I really don't think you can neglect the large number of people who think they are very bright and effective and would be great for this role, but actually aren't. Based on my experience, this is a solid proportion of nerdy men (I say as one of them). When I was studying physics, all sorts of people would want to talk about their interest in physics and quantum mechanics with me but they "were only good with the concepts, not the math." Any brief conversation would reveal they didn't have the damnedest idea what was going on. My suspicion is that these are the people driving the anti-leetcode discourse. Top unis absolutely pass on bright students all the time, you are right.
      • strikelaserclaw 5y ago
        i like leetcode and I'm good at it, but after a certain point grinding leetcode doesn't make you a better software "engineer", it just makes you better taking tests. Now i believe tests have a purpose in the interview process and i'm not opposed to having some leetcode in interviews. I've noticed the pattern of making leetcode type problems harder and harder because people keep grinding and grinding. There are some problem where the solutions are so absurdly clever that unless you are either a genius or you've studied the solution before, you would never be able to get close to it on interviews, and i'm leaning towards most people aren't geniuses.
• mimon 5y ago
  If you think holding a CS degree in any way correlates with being able to function as a professional developer... Boy have I got news for you. Companies conduct these interviews because holding a CS degree is almost worthless as an indicator of ability. I suggest you sit in on some of these interviews if you get the chance, you will very quickly see what an absolute train wreck they are when you get someone with the right paper qualifications who just doesn't know how to code at all.
  • crispyambulance 5y ago
    > ...what an absolute train wreck... I am sure they can be, but there are many accounts of talented people who initially bombed these things in a big embarrassing way, NOT because they lack ability, but because they never practiced for the test and didn't know what to expect (yes it happens). This can happen to folks who learned on the job until they outgrew their job and decided to leave. They suddenly find themselves doing an "obstacle course" technical interview gauntlet that focuses on things that they just haven't had to think about for a long time (or ever). I believe talented enough folks can get through it if they can focus and study for a while (and accept the humiliation of failing big at first). It's not an infinity of subject matter, nor is it rocket science. I think if someone loves the work enough they can get themselves through it.
    • b20000 5y ago
      exactly this. and practicing for a few days is not enough. if someone who is experienced and can write software needs to spend months training for this, the interviews are broken. but, i disagree with the solution you suggest. the only solution is to refuse and instead of wasting 3 months training with no guarantees, build a product instead and sell it.
      • bradlys 5y ago
        > but, i disagree with the solution you suggest. the only solution is to refuse and instead of wasting 3 months training with no guarantees, build a product instead and sell it. Because being a software engineer means running your own business… right. Just like surgeons should start their own hospital before getting hired. Makes total sense…
• dwaltrip 5y ago
  This is a self-defeating attitude. It sucks sometimes, but we have to deal with the world as it actually is, not how we wish it to be. When it comes down to it, the universe doesn’t give a shit about our opinions :)
  • b20000 5y ago
    with your attitude everyone would still be shoveling shit somewhere in a coal mine.
    • Jensson 5y ago
      The "talk about a project" is the coal mine though, what we have now is the evolution of that.
    • dwaltrip 5y ago
      I may not have communicated as clearly as I could have. I’m not saying mindlessly accept a shitty deal. I’m saying that wishful thinking such as “it shouldn’t be this way and I’m going to pretend it isn’t” is not very helpful. If you can turn such thinking into a useful action that leads toward the outcome you want or a general improvement, then that is great. But that isn’t always easy to do. Sometimes you have to deal with bullshit because the result is worth it. Or choose another path entirely, realizing the trade off you are making.
• atleta 5y ago
  In one of the first interviews I conducted (for my first ever startup), I interviewed a guy who had enough of his corporate job. He was a java architect, studying for some of those SC... whatever exams. He was also a graduate of my alma mater. Same univeristy, same faculty. I thought he would be great. I was new to this, but had looked up two coding quizes. The first one was really simple, I found it a bit embarrassing during the first few interviews. Now that was the interview, with this guy, when I decided that I'll never state that I'll give them two coding challenges and that the first one is really simple. Because the dude wasn't able to solve it, at all. And when I say simple, I mean simple. My co-founder, who sat over all those interviews and who really had nothing to do with programming, did already understand the problem and solution after a few rounds of interviews. So while I do think that getting CS (or similar) degree does indeed give you a lot it's by no means a proof that someone can actually write code.
• dqpb 5y ago
  I don't care about your degree, I care if you can solve problems. If you can't solve a simple leetcode problem, why should I expect you to solve anything else?