4 ms·

The "right" solution is to not use person info as "passwords". Instead, give everyone a digital certificate with the private key stored in smartcards that don'

by gjvnq 5y ago

The "right" solution is to not use person info as "passwords". Instead, give everyone a digital certificate with the private key stored in smartcards that don't allow anyone to copy the key, only to use it.

jeroenhd 5y ago
Those are problematic as well, because they're very costly. One country that implemented authentication and signing this way (I think it was Estonia?) had to recall and replace every single smart card after someone discovered a way to clone the RSA chip on them. With some bad luck, you're replacing these multiple times per year because smart card vendors often overstate the security of their products. You could, of course, use real passwords, like every single service out there on the internet. Force some level of 2FA for security as well and you should be fine security wise. Incremental plaintext numbers are not passwords, though. European countries have solved this problem in a variety of ways (that have been made cross-compatible and federated, even) and none of them use numbers on identification as a security number.
- inter_netuser 5y ago
  The only real fix is not to have central databases at all (Germany does that to a large extent), and keep only necessary things on electronic media (Lawyers and psychiatrists still do that today). It can be done. Not everything must be electronic, and not everything must be centralized.
- stef25 5y ago
  Here in Belgium we have smart card IDs. You assign a 4 digit pin as password and then use a smart card reader to access various govt websites. Only problem is you have to install a browser plugin that has to be compatible with your browser version and some non-technical people get confused. Apart from that it's actually a pretty good system. It's now being replaced with a smartphone app, one that uses servers in the USA which poses all kinds of GDPR / privacy issues.
  - rob74 5y ago
    Yeah, in Germany too - ID card containing RFID chip, so you can access government websites if you first buy a contactless card reader and manage to install the browser plugin. And guess what? These cards have been issued since 2010, so all the cards in circulation now theoretically support this feature (if the person didn't opt out), but almost noone actually uses it...
    - germanier 5y ago
      Many modern smartphones function as a reader (by installing the AusweisApp2) for many years now, see https://www.ausweisapp.bund.de/mobile-geraete/ https://www.ausweisapp.bund.de/mobile-geraete/ for the compatibility list. No need to buy any additional hardware beyond what a lot of people already own nor is installing the app actually hard.
  - cynusx 5y ago
    EID readers are notorious difficult to get working properly, especially on non-standard platforms like linux/mac. The smartphone app has significantly improved the user experience and can rely on biometric functionality, SMS and other verifications. Overall, I think it's worth the risk if it's sufficiently defended cyber-security wise
sofixa 5y ago
Personal info isn't used as a password generally ( apparently it somewhat is in Argentina) in countries with national ID cards and databases. The card and its associated number are used to identify you and prove you are you in specific scenarios ( e.g. post office, police, bank account, etc.) but isn't used as a password in any way. The number ( or a tax/social security/citizen one) is sometimes used as the account login on some systems (e.g. French tax authority or social security system), but you still have a regular password alongside it. And btw ID cards in the EU have chips with all the basic information on it as well, for use at airports and similar, and there are plans to use e.g. an app which reads from the chip to confirm possession of the card, and compare the photo on it with a selfie you take and confirm your identity digitally.
- marcosdumay 5y ago
  Looks like Argentina was using an incidental id leaked together with the data as a global government password. With any luck, the leak forces them to abandon it. But given people reporting on other comments that the leak was already denied, I'm not holding my breath.

by gjvnq 5y ago

jeroenhd 5y ago

Those are problematic as well, because they're very costly. One country that implemented authentication and signing this way (I think it was Estonia?) had to recall and replace every single smart card after someone discovered a way to clone the RSA chip on them. With some bad luck, you're replacing these multiple times per year because smart card vendors often overstate the security of their products. You could, of course, use real passwords, like every single service out there on the internet. Force some level of 2FA for security as well and you should be fine security wise. Incremental plaintext numbers are not passwords, though. European countries have solved this problem in a variety of ways (that have been made cross-compatible and federated, even) and none of them use numbers on identification as a security number.

inter_netuser 5y ago
The only real fix is not to have central databases at all (Germany does that to a large extent), and keep only necessary things on electronic media (Lawyers and psychiatrists still do that today). It can be done. Not everything must be electronic, and not everything must be centralized.
stef25 5y ago
Here in Belgium we have smart card IDs. You assign a 4 digit pin as password and then use a smart card reader to access various govt websites. Only problem is you have to install a browser plugin that has to be compatible with your browser version and some non-technical people get confused. Apart from that it's actually a pretty good system. It's now being replaced with a smartphone app, one that uses servers in the USA which poses all kinds of GDPR / privacy issues.
- rob74 5y ago
  Yeah, in Germany too - ID card containing RFID chip, so you can access government websites if you first buy a contactless card reader and manage to install the browser plugin. And guess what? These cards have been issued since 2010, so all the cards in circulation now theoretically support this feature (if the person didn't opt out), but almost noone actually uses it...
  - germanier 5y ago
    Many modern smartphones function as a reader (by installing the AusweisApp2) for many years now, see https://www.ausweisapp.bund.de/mobile-geraete/ https://www.ausweisapp.bund.de/mobile-geraete/ for the compatibility list. No need to buy any additional hardware beyond what a lot of people already own nor is installing the app actually hard.
- cynusx 5y ago
  EID readers are notorious difficult to get working properly, especially on non-standard platforms like linux/mac. The smartphone app has significantly improved the user experience and can rely on biometric functionality, SMS and other verifications. Overall, I think it's worth the risk if it's sufficiently defended cyber-security wise

sofixa 5y ago

Personal info isn't used as a password generally ( apparently it somewhat is in Argentina) in countries with national ID cards and databases. The card and its associated number are used to identify you and prove you are you in specific scenarios ( e.g. post office, police, bank account, etc.) but isn't used as a password in any way. The number ( or a tax/social security/citizen one) is sometimes used as the account login on some systems (e.g. French tax authority or social security system), but you still have a regular password alongside it. And btw ID cards in the EU have chips with all the basic information on it as well, for use at airports and similar, and there are plans to use e.g. an app which reads from the chip to confirm possession of the card, and compare the photo on it with a selfie you take and confirm your identity digitally.

marcosdumay 5y ago
Looks like Argentina was using an incidental id leaked together with the data as a global government password. With any luck, the leak forces them to abandon it. But given people reporting on other comments that the leak was already denied, I'm not holding my breath.