9 ms·

Framework + NixOS is the most exciting hardware + OS going IMHO. If someone wants to do a crowdfunding or devpay or similar to make them work out of the box tog

by jph 5y ago

Framework + NixOS is the most exciting hardware + OS going IMHO. If someone wants to do a crowdfunding or devpay or similar to make them work out of the box together, I will gladly donate or pay.

fungiblecog 5y ago
+1
whateveracct 5y ago
import framework.nix {}
- joppy 5y ago
  The post itself shows that it is non-trivial to even boot this hardware with Nix.
  - whateveracct 5y ago
    yes I know - I am implying a future where they Just Work and we do the hard work of building needed abstractions my code is possible if people want it :) the real value of NixOS is hardware and OS config can be turned into libraries!
  - prophesi 5y ago
    The only issues were needing to disable secure boot (which is usually a required step on laptops preinstalled with Windows anyways), and using a recent Linux kernel that has the required WiFi driver. Which the tutorial linked in the post mentions. And then Linux in general is notorious for having issues with USB WiFi adapters. More info on that can be found here https://github.com/morrownr/USB-WiFi https://github.com/morrownr/USB-WiFi
b9be520d93286 5y ago
Can you do NixOS without systemd? If not, I'd look elsewhere for the distro. Maybe Guix?
- jeppesen-io 5y ago
  Just take the time to learn systemd. Once you do, like nix, it saves so much time
  - gigatexal 5y ago
    Yeah no point in fighting it. It’s the standard. Learn to love SystemD.
  - rollcat 5y ago
    systemd is so complex, I've come to a conclusion, that it no longer fits my definition of free software. We allow runaway complexity to obscure the inner workings of an important software package, to the point, where having source access no longer makes a practical difference to a "casual" power-user or even a software engineer. I can source-dive runit, s6, OpenBSD's rc, or OpenRC and within a weekend, have a pretty OK understanding, fix a bug, or add a feature. Having software as complex as systemd taking so many roles, and making itself so ubiquitous and irreplaceable, makes me feel that I no longer have any control or understanding of my system, bugs or misfeatures just become things you live with, or you riddle yourself with arcane workarounds. Portability suffers, monoculture takes root. I've lost faith in "mainstream" Linux distros. I use macOS and OpenBSD for workstations, and Alpine where I need e.g. Docker. It must either be simple enough to understand, or provide enough utility/convenience that the lack of (practical) source access is compensated. systemd fits neither category.
    - candiddevmike 5y ago
      Yes, systemd has a ton of surface area and options. Yes, the man pages are long. No, you don't need to read them--the beauty of systemd is you control how much of the complexity you use. Unit files can be 10 lines or 30. Most of the extra options are for security and hardening, when you need them you'll be glad they're easy to turn on. For the other components, I think have a stable, familiar, and consistent set of core services (boot, ntp, logging, networking) is glorious
    - viraptor 5y ago
jeppesen-io 5y ago
It's not what you're asking but I wonder if NixOS's hardware repo could expand to support Framework with some good defaults That being said, I think there could be a good use case for "meta" NixOS distributions. I'm working on such a thing for a NixOS based RetroArch type thing. But could see a PopOS like configuration, focused on on an “out the box experience” https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware
- samueldr 5y ago
  Yes. Anyone with the hardware is welcome to contribute to nixos-hardware! Even "no-op empty configs" are good imo as they show "there's no magic sauce needed".
  - jeppesen-io 5y ago
    good to know; didn't think about "empty" configs
- emiller88 5y ago
  https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/issues/323 https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/issues/323 Created an issue for this for anyone interested!
georgewsinger 5y ago
Possibly of interest: SimulaVR (www.simulavr.com) is about to release a crowdfunding campaign for a portable Linux VR headset which will run NixOS stock under the hood (basically NixOS + Simula's window manager).
tomjen3 5y ago
I don't really see them as exciting when they are still Intel only. As far as I am aware you can't upgrade the CPU, much less upgrade it to AMD. I plan on keeping my M1 for a 2-3 more years, then we will have to see what Framework has come up with then. I like them a lot in principle (peripherals that can be switched to what I need? Yes please. Upgradable RAM? thanks), but I also won't compromise on battery time, performance or "linux works outside the box". Battery time could have been an easy fix if they had made it so I could switch the battery without taking the laptop apart.
globular-toast 5y ago
Replace NixOS with Guix and I agree!
- phaer 5y ago
  I'd love to see Guix with SystemD, but there's no work going in that direction that I am aware of. While I appreciate the work on [GNU Shepherd](https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/manual/shepherd.html https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/manual/shepherd.html), especially their documentation quality and the use of scheme instead of the rather obscure nix language, learning yet another init system on top of a new distro while systemd seemingly has won most of the market makes NixOS more attractive. At least to me
  - mbakke 5y ago
    Even if Guix were to switch to systemd (it won't), end users would primarily be interacting with services through the same high-level APIs as now. https://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/guix.html#Services https://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/guix.html#Services That is, the only difference in practice would be replacing 'herd' with 'systemctl' when stopping and starting services manually. Anything else, such as modifying a service, has to go through the configuration system. Similarly, for service authors, whether the API you design ends up creating a systemd unit file or shepherd service object is an implementation detail and would be mostly transparent.

by jph 5y ago

Framework + NixOS is the most exciting hardware + OS going IMHO. If someone wants to do a crowdfunding or devpay or similar to make them work out of the box together, I will gladly donate or pay.

fungiblecog 5y ago

whateveracct 5y ago

import framework.nix {}

joppy 5y ago
The post itself shows that it is non-trivial to even boot this hardware with Nix.
- whateveracct 5y ago
  yes I know - I am implying a future where they Just Work and we do the hard work of building needed abstractions my code is possible if people want it :) the real value of NixOS is hardware and OS config can be turned into libraries!
- prophesi 5y ago
  The only issues were needing to disable secure boot (which is usually a required step on laptops preinstalled with Windows anyways), and using a recent Linux kernel that has the required WiFi driver. Which the tutorial linked in the post mentions. And then Linux in general is notorious for having issues with USB WiFi adapters. More info on that can be found here https://github.com/morrownr/USB-WiFi https://github.com/morrownr/USB-WiFi

b9be520d93286 5y ago

Can you do NixOS without systemd? If not, I'd look elsewhere for the distro. Maybe Guix?

jeppesen-io 5y ago
Just take the time to learn systemd. Once you do, like nix, it saves so much time
- gigatexal 5y ago
  Yeah no point in fighting it. It’s the standard. Learn to love SystemD.
- rollcat 5y ago
  systemd is so complex, I've come to a conclusion, that it no longer fits my definition of free software. We allow runaway complexity to obscure the inner workings of an important software package, to the point, where having source access no longer makes a practical difference to a "casual" power-user or even a software engineer. I can source-dive runit, s6, OpenBSD's rc, or OpenRC and within a weekend, have a pretty OK understanding, fix a bug, or add a feature. Having software as complex as systemd taking so many roles, and making itself so ubiquitous and irreplaceable, makes me feel that I no longer have any control or understanding of my system, bugs or misfeatures just become things you live with, or you riddle yourself with arcane workarounds. Portability suffers, monoculture takes root. I've lost faith in "mainstream" Linux distros. I use macOS and OpenBSD for workstations, and Alpine where I need e.g. Docker. It must either be simple enough to understand, or provide enough utility/convenience that the lack of (practical) source access is compensated. systemd fits neither category.
  - candiddevmike 5y ago
    Yes, systemd has a ton of surface area and options. Yes, the man pages are long. No, you don't need to read them--the beauty of systemd is you control how much of the complexity you use. Unit files can be 10 lines or 30. Most of the extra options are for security and hardening, when you need them you'll be glad they're easy to turn on. For the other components, I think have a stable, familiar, and consistent set of core services (boot, ntp, logging, networking) is glorious
  - viraptor 5y ago

jeppesen-io 5y ago

It's not what you're asking but I wonder if NixOS's hardware repo could expand to support Framework with some good defaults That being said, I think there could be a good use case for "meta" NixOS distributions. I'm working on such a thing for a NixOS based RetroArch type thing. But could see a PopOS like configuration, focused on on an “out the box experience” https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware

samueldr 5y ago
Yes. Anyone with the hardware is welcome to contribute to nixos-hardware! Even "no-op empty configs" are good imo as they show "there's no magic sauce needed".
- jeppesen-io 5y ago
  good to know; didn't think about "empty" configs
emiller88 5y ago
https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/issues/323 https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/issues/323 Created an issue for this for anyone interested!

georgewsinger 5y ago

Possibly of interest: SimulaVR (www.simulavr.com) is about to release a crowdfunding campaign for a portable Linux VR headset which will run NixOS stock under the hood (basically NixOS + Simula's window manager).

tomjen3 5y ago

I don't really see them as exciting when they are still Intel only. As far as I am aware you can't upgrade the CPU, much less upgrade it to AMD. I plan on keeping my M1 for a 2-3 more years, then we will have to see what Framework has come up with then. I like them a lot in principle (peripherals that can be switched to what I need? Yes please. Upgradable RAM? thanks), but I also won't compromise on battery time, performance or "linux works outside the box". Battery time could have been an easy fix if they had made it so I could switch the battery without taking the laptop apart.

globular-toast 5y ago

Replace NixOS with Guix and I agree!

phaer 5y ago
I'd love to see Guix with SystemD, but there's no work going in that direction that I am aware of. While I appreciate the work on [GNU Shepherd](https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/manual/shepherd.html https://www.gnu.org/software/shepherd/manual/shepherd.html), especially their documentation quality and the use of scheme instead of the rather obscure nix language, learning yet another init system on top of a new distro while systemd seemingly has won most of the market makes NixOS more attractive. At least to me
- mbakke 5y ago
  Even if Guix were to switch to systemd (it won't), end users would primarily be interacting with services through the same high-level APIs as now. https://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/guix.html#Services https://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/guix.html#Services That is, the only difference in practice would be replacing 'herd' with 'systemctl' when stopping and starting services manually. Anything else, such as modifying a service, has to go through the configuration system. Similarly, for service authors, whether the API you design ends up creating a systemd unit file or shepherd service object is an implementation detail and would be mostly transparent.