7 ms·

Even software engineers are labor man. If it isn't livable for regular people, what the fuck is the point?

m_ke 5y ago
Sorry had to tend to something and didn't get to write more in my original comment but my point is exactly what you're saying. As software engineers we have a lot more leverage at Amazon than the warehouse workers, than the driver's at Uber, than the delivery drivers at seamless and instacart, at Netflix and Amazon than the IATSE workers. Uber engineers walking off for a day could do more for the gig workers than all of the strikes that they attempted in different cities.
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  You have to convince software engineers they are labor instead of temporarily embarrassed millionaires. Some do end up wealthy. Most won’t (so says the data [1] [2]). Edit: In my experience, older folks are easier to sell on the idea because they’ve seen how the sausage is made and have had enough time to have possibility convert to reality. Younger folks are still…more optimistic than the data suggests is realistic. [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/mobile/computer-programmers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... [2] https://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/ https://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/
  - JKCalhoun 5y ago
    When you pass by the homeless (along nearly every freeway) it's hard not to feel very privileged. Even though not wealthy, still much, much better off than many.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - throwawaygh 5y ago
    > temporarily embarrassed millionaires At Amazon and Uber? The problem is that they aren't not millionaires; they're mkaing 250k-650k/yr. At those companies, even in extremely high CoL, you can pay the landlord his due and be a millionaire in 5-10 years.
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      What percentage of all SWEs do you think those folks are? I acknowledge the outliers in my original comment but also put forth that they are a minority when considering the entire industry footprint. Software engineering is larger than just FAANGM.
      - throwawaygh 5y ago
        Agreed, probably sub-1%, but you mentioned them specifically :)
  - jandrewrogers 5y ago
    > You have to convince software engineers they are labor instead of temporarily embarrassed millionaires. At least in the US, they aren’t temporarily embarrassed, they actually are millionaires in many cases. Software engineering today may have one the highest expected ROIs of any occupation in history.
    - rtomanek 5y ago
      Doctors?
      - missedthecue 5y ago
        You can't begin work as a doctor until you're in your thirties. Usually with a ton of debt.
- vlovich123 5y ago
  I’ve watched these walk offs at Google and Facebook. They’re not impactful. The company loses a day of productivity (maybe) but everyone still gets paid. Half the time the owners are like “yeah ! We’re with you about how the things we totally did are unacceptable”. Now if they walked off the job for a year, then things might change because it could cost their bottom line meaningfully. Maybe. But. And this is a big but. The companies are sitting on tens of billions of dollars in the bank and have private police forces on campus. I’m pretty sure they’ll pay extra for any strike breakers to come in if it came to that to avoid setting the bad precedent (from their perspective) that labor is an equal party to meaningful negotiations. The police force will try to ensure the safety of the strike breakers. The company will also go on a PR offensive to magnify any small misstep to overwhelm the bigger story.
perl4ever 5y ago
My perception is that there's always been a white collar/blue collar split that has hindered things. My dad was involved in trying to unionize engineers at GE, a long time ago. There was a vote, but it didn't quite make it. It wasn't until like a quarter century after he died that I realized he might not have retired early by choice. I have zero details on it, all I know is that it was pre-Jack Welch, and probably the majority of the engineers felt that they were too good for a union. I am a member of a union that has a long and convoluted history, but I think the origin was basically about how office workers didn't want to belong to the same union as everyone else. People said this was folly, that it was splitting the power of the employees to our detriment.
- refurb 5y ago
  I used to belong to a union and while helpful for blue collar work, the benefits go away pretty quickly when you can negotiate as an individual, have high mobility and strong demand for skills. When I was in union you negotiated as a group. You bring up the bottom and pull down the top. Seniority determines most of your compensation, not performance.
  - perl4ever 5y ago
    > when you can negotiate as an individual When can you negotiate as an individual? Is the scenario you have in mind when there is an actual bidding war, when you go into a negotiation of salary with an actual offer from another firm, and neither one is offended enough to eliminate you from consideration? How often does that happen to you and how often do you think it happens in general?
    - fighterpilot 5y ago
      Most of the pay gap between the top and bottom performers isn't much to do with direct negotiation, it's the cumulative effect of star performers being in high demand and therefore getting faster promotions, more and better offers, etc. If they get screwed on a promotion they can get another ten offers and pick the best one. Iterate over twenty years and you have a gigantic gap in comp between the top and bottom within the same industry.

m_ke 5y ago

Sorry had to tend to something and didn't get to write more in my original comment but my point is exactly what you're saying. As software engineers we have a lot more leverage at Amazon than the warehouse workers, than the driver's at Uber, than the delivery drivers at seamless and instacart, at Netflix and Amazon than the IATSE workers. Uber engineers walking off for a day could do more for the gig workers than all of the strikes that they attempted in different cities.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
You have to convince software engineers they are labor instead of temporarily embarrassed millionaires. Some do end up wealthy. Most won’t (so says the data [1] [2]). Edit: In my experience, older folks are easier to sell on the idea because they’ve seen how the sausage is made and have had enough time to have possibility convert to reality. Younger folks are still…more optimistic than the data suggests is realistic. [1] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/mobile/computer-programmers.htm https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-technology/... [2] https://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/ https://danluu.com/startup-tradeoffs/
- JKCalhoun 5y ago
  When you pass by the homeless (along nearly every freeway) it's hard not to feel very privileged. Even though not wealthy, still much, much better off than many.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  > temporarily embarrassed millionaires At Amazon and Uber? The problem is that they aren't not millionaires; they're mkaing 250k-650k/yr. At those companies, even in extremely high CoL, you can pay the landlord his due and be a millionaire in 5-10 years.
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    What percentage of all SWEs do you think those folks are? I acknowledge the outliers in my original comment but also put forth that they are a minority when considering the entire industry footprint. Software engineering is larger than just FAANGM.
    - throwawaygh 5y ago
      Agreed, probably sub-1%, but you mentioned them specifically :)
- jandrewrogers 5y ago
  > You have to convince software engineers they are labor instead of temporarily embarrassed millionaires. At least in the US, they aren’t temporarily embarrassed, they actually are millionaires in many cases. Software engineering today may have one the highest expected ROIs of any occupation in history.
  - rtomanek 5y ago
    Doctors?
    - missedthecue 5y ago
      You can't begin work as a doctor until you're in your thirties. Usually with a ton of debt.
vlovich123 5y ago
I’ve watched these walk offs at Google and Facebook. They’re not impactful. The company loses a day of productivity (maybe) but everyone still gets paid. Half the time the owners are like “yeah ! We’re with you about how the things we totally did are unacceptable”. Now if they walked off the job for a year, then things might change because it could cost their bottom line meaningfully. Maybe. But. And this is a big but. The companies are sitting on tens of billions of dollars in the bank and have private police forces on campus. I’m pretty sure they’ll pay extra for any strike breakers to come in if it came to that to avoid setting the bad precedent (from their perspective) that labor is an equal party to meaningful negotiations. The police force will try to ensure the safety of the strike breakers. The company will also go on a PR offensive to magnify any small misstep to overwhelm the bigger story.

perl4ever 5y ago

My perception is that there's always been a white collar/blue collar split that has hindered things. My dad was involved in trying to unionize engineers at GE, a long time ago. There was a vote, but it didn't quite make it. It wasn't until like a quarter century after he died that I realized he might not have retired early by choice. I have zero details on it, all I know is that it was pre-Jack Welch, and probably the majority of the engineers felt that they were too good for a union. I am a member of a union that has a long and convoluted history, but I think the origin was basically about how office workers didn't want to belong to the same union as everyone else. People said this was folly, that it was splitting the power of the employees to our detriment.

refurb 5y ago
I used to belong to a union and while helpful for blue collar work, the benefits go away pretty quickly when you can negotiate as an individual, have high mobility and strong demand for skills. When I was in union you negotiated as a group. You bring up the bottom and pull down the top. Seniority determines most of your compensation, not performance.
- perl4ever 5y ago
  > when you can negotiate as an individual When can you negotiate as an individual? Is the scenario you have in mind when there is an actual bidding war, when you go into a negotiation of salary with an actual offer from another firm, and neither one is offended enough to eliminate you from consideration? How often does that happen to you and how often do you think it happens in general?
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    Most of the pay gap between the top and bottom performers isn't much to do with direct negotiation, it's the cumulative effect of star performers being in high demand and therefore getting faster promotions, more and better offers, etc. If they get screwed on a promotion they can get another ten offers and pick the best one. Iterate over twenty years and you have a gigantic gap in comp between the top and bottom within the same industry.