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Because going to a 'bootcamp' for a couple of weeks doesn't make you anymore of a 'developer' than playing operation[0] makes you a surgeon. [0]https://en.wiki

Because going to a 'bootcamp' for a couple of weeks doesn't make you anymore of a 'developer' than playing operation[0] makes you a surgeon. [0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_(game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_(game)

MisterBastahrd 5y ago
Yet somehow we have all these people calling themselves "engineers" who couldn't code themselves out of anything more complex than a CRUD app.
- akudha 5y ago
  That is because most of the “jobs” require just that skill or some other very limited skill. I was asked to hand over the stuff that I was working on, when I left a job. It was interesting to find out the girl I was supposed to train, didn’t know even the absolute basic programming stuff. She had been in the company for five years and was well liked. She was doing just one specific thing all those years, and she was very good at it. She got raises every year, the company had a perverse interest in keeping her that way. I have worked in a dozen places in my life. Though tall promises are made during interviews, not one of those companies gave a shit about employee growth etc. only way to do something interesting was to leave and find another job - rinse and repeat. It is not just the employees fault their skills stagnate. Employers also contribute to it.
- walshemj 5y ago
  And how does CS degree where your learning just the Math Heavy theory do that? if you did an EE, Mech or Civil Degree maybe those are more appropriate.
paulcole 5y ago
Serious question then, how does someone become a ‘developer’?
- WalterSear 5y ago
  Write code. Create stuff. Schooling can only ever provide you a starting off point.
- adventured 5y ago
  There's nothing wrong with using a bootcamp to get started. Everyone has to start somewhere. The bootcamps have often gotten a bad reputation for pretending they prepare you to dive right into a serious job as an experienced developer. Many of them are guilty of misleading people to pull customers, doing the typical thing of promising overly fast results. Bootcamps, self-education, go to school for it, internships; a combination of things. There are plenty of ways to get started and keep progressing.
- DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
  By developing software. …which is why “developer” is not a good job-description. I suppose it’s as if both a bricklayer and a civil-engineer referred to themselves as “builders”. —————- I think you meant to ask “how does someone become an SWE?” - in which case (because we don’t have professional licensing for SWE compared to civil-eng) it’s somewhat vaguer and, in my opinion, more based on the opinions of those around you. I suppose a succinct definition is “applies engineering principles to a problem-solving project” - and one can argue that being self-taught or a coding-camp attendee - or even an AS graduate - will very likely lack exposure to training in engineering principles that they can apply to their work.
  - paulcole 5y ago
    No, I definitely didn’t mean SWE. I quoted the post I was replying to and they said ‘developer.’ Honestly, it seems like a bootcamp is a great way to get introduced to the possibility of an entry-level job as a developer but not an SWE.
- aloisdg 5y ago
  I would said by developing. I don't care where do you start. Just grab a keyboard and start. Choose a personal project. It can be an app for your phone, a small game, a website for your local sport club, a mod, a bot, whatever. You can reinvent the wheel, you can innovate, use all the libraries you want. There is no rules but start. Then line after line, bug after bug, someone become a developer. You will be your first user. Shit starts with the second one. You don't to be a professional one. You don't have to earn money. I think, that you just have to develop.
kleinsch 5y ago
Instead of gatekeeping off what we each consider a developer to be, let’s relate it back to the article. The problem for bootcamp grads is that at the FAANG level (the companies with money and motivation to train juniors) they only hire juniors who interned at FAANG. They only recruit interns from universities. So if you just got out of a 12 week bootcamp, going to be hard to compete with a 4 year degree (or graduate) + 3 months work at a real company. Even outside the FAANG level, there are thousands of new grads with degrees and work experience applying for entry level jobs.
ravenstine 5y ago
This is nonsense. Senior developer here, went to a bootcamp 8 years ago and well here I am. You might as well then flip off the high percentage of HN users who are devs who didn't go to either college or a bootcamp. Bootcamps did explode in popularity, a lot of them are crap, and more people than ever see it as the fast lane to easy street. But to equate going to a bootcamp to a surgeon playing operation is really ignorant. Writing some CRUD apps around a database (which lets face it most of us are doing that most of the time) is by no means as important or a life changing/ending action as performing surgery.

MisterBastahrd 5y ago

Yet somehow we have all these people calling themselves "engineers" who couldn't code themselves out of anything more complex than a CRUD app.

akudha 5y ago
That is because most of the “jobs” require just that skill or some other very limited skill. I was asked to hand over the stuff that I was working on, when I left a job. It was interesting to find out the girl I was supposed to train, didn’t know even the absolute basic programming stuff. She had been in the company for five years and was well liked. She was doing just one specific thing all those years, and she was very good at it. She got raises every year, the company had a perverse interest in keeping her that way. I have worked in a dozen places in my life. Though tall promises are made during interviews, not one of those companies gave a shit about employee growth etc. only way to do something interesting was to leave and find another job - rinse and repeat. It is not just the employees fault their skills stagnate. Employers also contribute to it.
walshemj 5y ago
And how does CS degree where your learning just the Math Heavy theory do that? if you did an EE, Mech or Civil Degree maybe those are more appropriate.

paulcole 5y ago

Serious question then, how does someone become a ‘developer’?

WalterSear 5y ago
Write code. Create stuff. Schooling can only ever provide you a starting off point.
adventured 5y ago
There's nothing wrong with using a bootcamp to get started. Everyone has to start somewhere. The bootcamps have often gotten a bad reputation for pretending they prepare you to dive right into a serious job as an experienced developer. Many of them are guilty of misleading people to pull customers, doing the typical thing of promising overly fast results. Bootcamps, self-education, go to school for it, internships; a combination of things. There are plenty of ways to get started and keep progressing.
DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
By developing software. …which is why “developer” is not a good job-description. I suppose it’s as if both a bricklayer and a civil-engineer referred to themselves as “builders”. —————- I think you meant to ask “how does someone become an SWE?” - in which case (because we don’t have professional licensing for SWE compared to civil-eng) it’s somewhat vaguer and, in my opinion, more based on the opinions of those around you. I suppose a succinct definition is “applies engineering principles to a problem-solving project” - and one can argue that being self-taught or a coding-camp attendee - or even an AS graduate - will very likely lack exposure to training in engineering principles that they can apply to their work.
- paulcole 5y ago
  No, I definitely didn’t mean SWE. I quoted the post I was replying to and they said ‘developer.’ Honestly, it seems like a bootcamp is a great way to get introduced to the possibility of an entry-level job as a developer but not an SWE.
aloisdg 5y ago
I would said by developing. I don't care where do you start. Just grab a keyboard and start. Choose a personal project. It can be an app for your phone, a small game, a website for your local sport club, a mod, a bot, whatever. You can reinvent the wheel, you can innovate, use all the libraries you want. There is no rules but start. Then line after line, bug after bug, someone become a developer. You will be your first user. Shit starts with the second one. You don't to be a professional one. You don't have to earn money. I think, that you just have to develop.

kleinsch 5y ago

Instead of gatekeeping off what we each consider a developer to be, let’s relate it back to the article. The problem for bootcamp grads is that at the FAANG level (the companies with money and motivation to train juniors) they only hire juniors who interned at FAANG. They only recruit interns from universities. So if you just got out of a 12 week bootcamp, going to be hard to compete with a 4 year degree (or graduate) + 3 months work at a real company. Even outside the FAANG level, there are thousands of new grads with degrees and work experience applying for entry level jobs.

ravenstine 5y ago

This is nonsense. Senior developer here, went to a bootcamp 8 years ago and well here I am. You might as well then flip off the high percentage of HN users who are devs who didn't go to either college or a bootcamp. Bootcamps did explode in popularity, a lot of them are crap, and more people than ever see it as the fast lane to easy street. But to equate going to a bootcamp to a surgeon playing operation is really ignorant. Writing some CRUD apps around a database (which lets face it most of us are doing that most of the time) is by no means as important or a life changing/ending action as performing surgery.