8 ms·

California has such a disfunctional gov, don’t ever let people tell you there’s no money. It’s just going to overpaid public sector workers in education (where

California has such a disfunctional gov, don’t ever let people tell you there’s no money. It’s just going to overpaid public sector workers in education (where you can’t be fired after 2 years and pay is completely based on seniority), health care, and the prisons. Police in my area make up to 600k with overtime, and probably get a similarly large guaranteed pension. All those services have gotten huge increases in money over the last few years with 0 to negative improvement.

nouveaux 5y ago
I totally get it and agree that there are so many problems in California's government. With that said, please show me a state that is better run compared to California. I am genuinely curious to learn how we can do better.
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  US News does a ranking, taking into account infrastructure, education, fiscal health, crime, health care, etc. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings?int=top_nav_Overall_Rankings https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings?int=top_nav... Their top states are: Washington Minnesota Utah New Hampshire Idaho Nebraska Virginia Wisconsin Massachusetts Florida I am not going to die on the hill that this is the best ranking system. For example, every benefit has a cost, but fiscal health is only one factor whereas health care, infrastructure, education are three factors so the rankings are biased towards benefits rather than cost-effictive benefits, but it's still a decent starting point.
  - novok 5y ago
    I would like to add that wash is a better run state. They build more housing, the roads are in a better state despite worse weather, liberal politics, no state income tax and property tax is lower when you buy a house new, while in CA the rate can get to %1.5 effective, while it's around %1 in king county, doing this all while you have no state income tax.
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    The individual metric that California fails badly on, coming 50th is this one: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/opportunity https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/opportunity But I have no idea what it's measuring based on that blurb. Oh, if you click it breaks it down to "affordability", "equality" and "economic opportunity" of which it does poorly on the first two. So basically, California's main weakness is that too many rich people live there.
    - rsj_hn 5y ago
      > So basically, California's main weakness is that too many rich people live there. California is a state where median house price is $760K, whereas median household income is $75K. If you look at that number and say "Well, clearly that's because too many rich people live there", then I'm not sure what benefit is obtained from looking at any data at all.
      - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
        That's almost exactly what I think. Sucks for the low wage earners who can't relocate but its a fairly predictable outcome of lots of well paid immigrants (inter and intra-national) arriving. At the urban scale this is called gentrification.
arbuge 5y ago
I read this thinking that the 600k figure you mention couldn't possibly be right, but apparently it is: https://blog.transparentcalifornia.com/2020/11/16/oakland-cops-640000-pay-package-highest-ever/ https://blog.transparentcalifornia.com/2020/11/16/oakland-co...
- tryptophan 5y ago
  They spend 5000$ per resident per year that they don't have?! Mismanagement is putting it lightly...
- rossdavidh 5y ago
  ...as long as you notice the "up to" part of that. Still, higher than I expected, even at the more common 200-300k.
mistrial9 5y ago
the across-the-board, badge-wearing pay raise was specifically enacted by US Pres. Bush the Younger. I was irritated to find out that a state policeman here with a 2-year community college degree, started pay at more money than I had made after years of high-skill small companies. It was from Texas, and the rumor at the time was that the Bush family admired the military security in Saudi Arabia and sought to be more like that.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  Do you put your life on the line at your job?
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    For the record, being a police officer is the 25th most dangerous job in the US, after: Logging workers, Aircraft pilots and flight engineers, Roofers, Construction helpers, Crossing guards, Garbage collectors, Farming supervisors, Delivery drivers, Ironworkers, Farmers, Cement masons, Agricultural workers, Construction supervisors, Highway maintenance workers, Grounds maintenance workers, Mining machine operators, Supervisors of mechanics, Power lineworkers, Construction workers, Construction equipment operators, Maintenance workers, Heavy vehicle mechanics, Crane operators, Landscaping supervisors https://advisorsmith.com/data/most-dangerous-jobs/ https://advisorsmith.com/data/most-dangerous-jobs/
WhisperingShiba 5y ago
We need an economic collapse so baaaadly. I love California but this shit is out of hand.
- souplesse 5y ago
  What do you imagine that would look like? Not trying to be flippant, genuinely curious.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    USA has financed itself by taking investments/loans from other countries for decades now, at some point the net inflow of money will have to stop and the country will have to sustain itself rather than live off funding. Imagine what happens to the economy when you can no longer import twice as much goods as you export.
    - sonthonax 5y ago
      No it hasn’t. Most US public debt is held domestically (while I’m not sure on the specifics, I think it’s about 80%).
      - Jensson 5y ago
        > No it hasn’t. Most US public debt is held domestically (while I’m not sure on the specifics, I think it’s about 80%). You aren't contradicting anything I said here. Most debt is domestic, but what matters is the external debt and it will dry up, and when it does USA will no longer be able to import way more than it exports. And imports/exports affects everything else in the economy, so altering massively as is bound to happen would have huge consequences.
    - maxerickson 5y ago
      Money doesn't drive the economy, it lubricates it.
      - 5y ago
thatfrenchguy 5y ago
I mean, NIMBYs have made it impossible to live in Northern California unless you make a lot of money. 80k for a teacher sounds a lot until you realize that you have to have roommates to survive or have inherited a place.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > NIMBYs have made it impossible to live in Northern California unless you make a lot of money At which point the tax base starts rotting. I grew in up the Bay Area. (Among other places.) The clear trend in my high school group: make money, buy a house, move to a lower-tax state (read: any state), pay what you owe for the days you’re in California. Which leaves middle class folks like my parents, one of whom was until recently a bank teller, shouldering the cost for these policies.
- riazrizvi 5y ago
  NIMBY protections have been struck down statewide with the passage of a September law banning single family zoning [1]. I believe pressure to remove Newsom was driven by NIMBYs and real estate investors who wanted to prevent this. So hopefully we will see the housing crisis here ease somewhat. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/housing-market-pandemic-home-price-surge-government-reform-berkeley-berlin-2021-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/housing-market-pandemic-home...
- anonporridge 5y ago
  Inheritance needs to be abolished or severely curtailed. It's weakening society by giving the lazy children of privilege outsized reward and power while making it nearly impossible for motivated, hard working contributors to society the ability to rise up.
  - syshum 5y ago
    Have any actual data support this claim? Because reality generally disagrees with your assessment.
devwastaken 5y ago
Do you have a reference to those numbers?
- bcrosby95 5y ago
  https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?q=police https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?q=police
wjb182 5y ago
While I agree that the funding model for a lot of services in California is broken, I think you're basing your opinion on a number of false premises. For example, speaking directly to your claims about educator pay: 1. You can absolutely be fired for cause as a tenured teacher in California, and it happens all the time. It's certainly more difficult than most other professions, but there is no law or policy preventing teachers from being fired. 2. Teacher pay is not entirely based on seniority. Graduate education, certifications such as the National Board of Teachers (which is merit based and does require observation) or a bilingual certification, coaching a team/leading a club, all can contribute significantly to a teacher's salary. 3.After a 10 years of service, a teacher with a masters degree in my area makes $63K/year. Adjusting to a 12 month schedule, they'd be paid $75K year. With only a BA that drops to $54K. Hard to argue they are overpaid at that rate IMO. It's extremely easy to see the excessively high rates that some regents or college administrators make, and attempt to use that anecdata to draw a full conclusion, but in my experience the rank and file make on average 25-30% less than they could in private industry.
- gnicholas 5y ago
  Not sure where in CA you're based, but in Menlo Park there are custodians with total comp in the low six figures (including benefits but on a 9-month calendar). The teachers make more, and counselors/administrators are in the $200k range. As for teacher firing, it is very rare in CA. [1] > California has more than 1,000 school districts and 300,000 teachers, yet only 667 dismissal cases were filed between 2003 and 2012. Only 130 of those actually got to the hearing stage, and 82 resulted in dismissals — fewer than 10 a year. 1: https://www.mercurynews.com/2013/01/25/firing-a-tenured-teacher-in-california-can-be-tough/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2013/01/25/firing-a-tenured-teac...
  - malchow 5y ago
    Great point. You can see CA public employee salaries here. [1] The numbers are shocking, not only because they are all overpaid (the effect of public employee unions owning California's Democrat government, a downward-spiral effect predicted by people as varied as right-wing economists and Franklin D. Roosevelt [2]), but because in many cases these people get $500K - $700K per year for life in retirement. A private sector person would need a $10-$20 million post-tax trust fund in order to have that. [1] https://transparentcalifornia.com https://transparentcalifornia.com [2] https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/02/18/the-first-blow-against-public-employees/fdr-warned-us-about-public-sector-unions https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/02/18/the-first-b...
onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
Police offers in many departments can retire after 20 years with a life-time annual pension >100% of their current salary. If you look at how much you'd need to make to be able to save to have a pension this large - the average police officer in most major departments is getting paid close to an equivalent of $400k per year. Public pensions are out-of-control generous. I imagine the majority of police officers would gladly take 2x the pay and no pension and end up working until they're 65 like everyone else. So is it even really benefiting police officers?? It's just a massive drain on the public purse.

nouveaux 5y ago

I totally get it and agree that there are so many problems in California's government. With that said, please show me a state that is better run compared to California. I am genuinely curious to learn how we can do better.

rsj_hn 5y ago
US News does a ranking, taking into account infrastructure, education, fiscal health, crime, health care, etc. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings?int=top_nav_Overall_Rankings https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings?int=top_nav... Their top states are: Washington Minnesota Utah New Hampshire Idaho Nebraska Virginia Wisconsin Massachusetts Florida I am not going to die on the hill that this is the best ranking system. For example, every benefit has a cost, but fiscal health is only one factor whereas health care, infrastructure, education are three factors so the rankings are biased towards benefits rather than cost-effictive benefits, but it's still a decent starting point.
- novok 5y ago
  I would like to add that wash is a better run state. They build more housing, the roads are in a better state despite worse weather, liberal politics, no state income tax and property tax is lower when you buy a house new, while in CA the rate can get to %1.5 effective, while it's around %1 in king county, doing this all while you have no state income tax.
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  The individual metric that California fails badly on, coming 50th is this one: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/opportunity https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/opportunity But I have no idea what it's measuring based on that blurb. Oh, if you click it breaks it down to "affordability", "equality" and "economic opportunity" of which it does poorly on the first two. So basically, California's main weakness is that too many rich people live there.
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    > So basically, California's main weakness is that too many rich people live there. California is a state where median house price is $760K, whereas median household income is $75K. If you look at that number and say "Well, clearly that's because too many rich people live there", then I'm not sure what benefit is obtained from looking at any data at all.
    - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
      That's almost exactly what I think. Sucks for the low wage earners who can't relocate but its a fairly predictable outcome of lots of well paid immigrants (inter and intra-national) arriving. At the urban scale this is called gentrification.

arbuge 5y ago

I read this thinking that the 600k figure you mention couldn't possibly be right, but apparently it is: https://blog.transparentcalifornia.com/2020/11/16/oakland-cops-640000-pay-package-highest-ever/ https://blog.transparentcalifornia.com/2020/11/16/oakland-co...

tryptophan 5y ago
They spend 5000$ per resident per year that they don't have?! Mismanagement is putting it lightly...
rossdavidh 5y ago
...as long as you notice the "up to" part of that. Still, higher than I expected, even at the more common 200-300k.

mistrial9 5y ago

the across-the-board, badge-wearing pay raise was specifically enacted by US Pres. Bush the Younger. I was irritated to find out that a state policeman here with a 2-year community college degree, started pay at more money than I had made after years of high-skill small companies. It was from Texas, and the rumor at the time was that the Bush family admired the military security in Saudi Arabia and sought to be more like that.

throwawayboise 5y ago
Do you put your life on the line at your job?
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  For the record, being a police officer is the 25th most dangerous job in the US, after: Logging workers, Aircraft pilots and flight engineers, Roofers, Construction helpers, Crossing guards, Garbage collectors, Farming supervisors, Delivery drivers, Ironworkers, Farmers, Cement masons, Agricultural workers, Construction supervisors, Highway maintenance workers, Grounds maintenance workers, Mining machine operators, Supervisors of mechanics, Power lineworkers, Construction workers, Construction equipment operators, Maintenance workers, Heavy vehicle mechanics, Crane operators, Landscaping supervisors https://advisorsmith.com/data/most-dangerous-jobs/ https://advisorsmith.com/data/most-dangerous-jobs/

WhisperingShiba 5y ago

We need an economic collapse so baaaadly. I love California but this shit is out of hand.

souplesse 5y ago
What do you imagine that would look like? Not trying to be flippant, genuinely curious.
- Jensson 5y ago
  USA has financed itself by taking investments/loans from other countries for decades now, at some point the net inflow of money will have to stop and the country will have to sustain itself rather than live off funding. Imagine what happens to the economy when you can no longer import twice as much goods as you export.
  - sonthonax 5y ago
    No it hasn’t. Most US public debt is held domestically (while I’m not sure on the specifics, I think it’s about 80%).
    - Jensson 5y ago
      > No it hasn’t. Most US public debt is held domestically (while I’m not sure on the specifics, I think it’s about 80%). You aren't contradicting anything I said here. Most debt is domestic, but what matters is the external debt and it will dry up, and when it does USA will no longer be able to import way more than it exports. And imports/exports affects everything else in the economy, so altering massively as is bound to happen would have huge consequences.
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    Money doesn't drive the economy, it lubricates it.
    - 5y ago

thatfrenchguy 5y ago

I mean, NIMBYs have made it impossible to live in Northern California unless you make a lot of money. 80k for a teacher sounds a lot until you realize that you have to have roommates to survive or have inherited a place.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> NIMBYs have made it impossible to live in Northern California unless you make a lot of money At which point the tax base starts rotting. I grew in up the Bay Area. (Among other places.) The clear trend in my high school group: make money, buy a house, move to a lower-tax state (read: any state), pay what you owe for the days you’re in California. Which leaves middle class folks like my parents, one of whom was until recently a bank teller, shouldering the cost for these policies.
riazrizvi 5y ago
NIMBY protections have been struck down statewide with the passage of a September law banning single family zoning [1]. I believe pressure to remove Newsom was driven by NIMBYs and real estate investors who wanted to prevent this. So hopefully we will see the housing crisis here ease somewhat. [1] https://www.businessinsider.com/housing-market-pandemic-home-price-surge-government-reform-berkeley-berlin-2021-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/housing-market-pandemic-home...
anonporridge 5y ago
Inheritance needs to be abolished or severely curtailed. It's weakening society by giving the lazy children of privilege outsized reward and power while making it nearly impossible for motivated, hard working contributors to society the ability to rise up.
- syshum 5y ago
  Have any actual data support this claim? Because reality generally disagrees with your assessment.

devwastaken 5y ago

Do you have a reference to those numbers?

bcrosby95 5y ago
https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?q=police https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/search/?q=police

wjb182 5y ago

While I agree that the funding model for a lot of services in California is broken, I think you're basing your opinion on a number of false premises. For example, speaking directly to your claims about educator pay: 1. You can absolutely be fired for cause as a tenured teacher in California, and it happens all the time. It's certainly more difficult than most other professions, but there is no law or policy preventing teachers from being fired. 2. Teacher pay is not entirely based on seniority. Graduate education, certifications such as the National Board of Teachers (which is merit based and does require observation) or a bilingual certification, coaching a team/leading a club, all can contribute significantly to a teacher's salary. 3.After a 10 years of service, a teacher with a masters degree in my area makes $63K/year. Adjusting to a 12 month schedule, they'd be paid $75K year. With only a BA that drops to $54K. Hard to argue they are overpaid at that rate IMO. It's extremely easy to see the excessively high rates that some regents or college administrators make, and attempt to use that anecdata to draw a full conclusion, but in my experience the rank and file make on average 25-30% less than they could in private industry.

gnicholas 5y ago
Not sure where in CA you're based, but in Menlo Park there are custodians with total comp in the low six figures (including benefits but on a 9-month calendar). The teachers make more, and counselors/administrators are in the $200k range. As for teacher firing, it is very rare in CA. [1] > California has more than 1,000 school districts and 300,000 teachers, yet only 667 dismissal cases were filed between 2003 and 2012. Only 130 of those actually got to the hearing stage, and 82 resulted in dismissals — fewer than 10 a year. 1: https://www.mercurynews.com/2013/01/25/firing-a-tenured-teacher-in-california-can-be-tough/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2013/01/25/firing-a-tenured-teac...
- malchow 5y ago
  Great point. You can see CA public employee salaries here. [1] The numbers are shocking, not only because they are all overpaid (the effect of public employee unions owning California's Democrat government, a downward-spiral effect predicted by people as varied as right-wing economists and Franklin D. Roosevelt [2]), but because in many cases these people get $500K - $700K per year for life in retirement. A private sector person would need a $10-$20 million post-tax trust fund in order to have that. [1] https://transparentcalifornia.com https://transparentcalifornia.com [2] https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/02/18/the-first-blow-against-public-employees/fdr-warned-us-about-public-sector-unions https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/02/18/the-first-b...

onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago

Police offers in many departments can retire after 20 years with a life-time annual pension >100% of their current salary. If you look at how much you'd need to make to be able to save to have a pension this large - the average police officer in most major departments is getting paid close to an equivalent of $400k per year. Public pensions are out-of-control generous. I imagine the majority of police officers would gladly take 2x the pay and no pension and end up working until they're 65 like everyone else. So is it even really benefiting police officers?? It's just a massive drain on the public purse.