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I don’t think the US government had any intention of truly getting the US out of the 2008 recession. All it wanted to do was keep the banks afloat and inevitabl

I don’t think the US government had any intention of truly getting the US out of the 2008 recession. All it wanted to do was keep the banks afloat and inevitably dilute the mass bailouts that were given via QE. That’s totally different than building from the bottom up, your FDR ‘prime pumping’ of the average American. Very different motives and one can argue that it wasn’t until COVID that the lower elements of society got help. But even then, they simply got a cash check. No programs to truly stimulate the society were implemented. Just eliminating credit-card debt for Americans would be society changing.

agent327 5y ago
Yeah, it would ensure nobody ever paid off their credit card again, for one thing... Just wait for the next round of debt elimination, and until then live the good life!
- crate_barre 5y ago
  Well, the banks never paid their debt off. So, what’s the difference? Might be a decent idea to give debt amnesty and cap all credit cards to 5k so no one ever falls into irreversible debt. If you did that, you may not even need to give everyone intense amounts of stimulus cash. Could also set up rent/mortgage limits nationwide. Unfettered capitalism in these areas wingclip the average person. Could also cap all private colleges to a max 10k a year. I’ve seen things as absurd as 50k a year. I’m not sure why it’s so hard to figure this out, it’s not working for the majority.
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  - agent327 5y ago
    The difference: nothing really. It's just that society appears to be able to hold on for a while with dysfunctional banks, while if no one wants to work again because money flows in through credit cards anyway, it seems to me things would go awry pretty damn quickly. If you want to truly change the housing market, require that the owner of the house lives in that house full time as well. Under this scheme families can own one house, and companies cannot own houses at all. There wouldn't be any rent-seeking at all. As for private colleges, they are not a necessity, so let them do as they please. Just, maybe, print mandatory yearly statistics about how their graduates are actually doing - that's enough information to tell people whether it's worth enrolling or not.
    - thombat 5y ago
      So when I move cities I have to quickly sell my house, or let it stand empty (or maybe let people live rent-free to avoid squatters)? Feels like quite a barrier to employment mobility
      - agent327 5y ago
        You could also apply a grace period.
        zzzzzzzza 5y ago
        or just move to a 100% land value tax instead.
        agent327 5y ago
        I don't believe that would achieve the goal of removing rent-seeking behaviour from rich house owners and corporations.
    - bluecalm 5y ago
      Let them do as they please as long as you don't hand out government guaranteed loans used to pay them. Colleges should have skin in the game - your graduates can't find decent paying job? - you are on the hook for the loan not the government. The incentives are just not right.
      - agent327 5y ago
        That I can agree with.
      - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
        What happens to people who didn’t graduate college but still had loans taken out for it?
        5y ago
  - tharkun__ 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure capping a CC at 5k would not do much. This is a bit old info but the one I found: Experian data shows that, as of December 2016, the average credit limit of a consumer with a Deep SubPrime credit score was $1,834. For consumers with SubPrime credit scores, the average credit limit was $2,645. Consumers with NonPrime credit had an average credit limit of $4,674. Those who have Prime credit scores had an average credit limit of $7,593. And consumers lucky enough to have SuperPrime credit scores had an average credit limit of $11,357. $5k @~19% and the 4% min payment, you pay ~$200 for a total of over $8k over 137 months. That's a _lot_ of months that you're going without being able to put anything else on your CC, since you're only doing the minimum payments. What do people do then? Get yet another credit card. According to some quick Googling, the average American has about 4 credit cards.
  - geoduck14 5y ago
    After the 2008 recession, the government did make some big changes that had an impact. They passed laws that capped the interchange fees of debit cards, which effectively killed debit cards They passed a law that prevented banks from changing the interest rate on credit cards in almost all cases - effectively forcing banks to charge high interest rates at the beginning, which then drove consumers to pay off their cards each month, so now most consumers are "transactors" (instead of "revolvers"). You now have SUPER HIGH limits (like $50k) for rich people, but they pay them off each month
- z3rgl1ng 5y ago
  So far as I've been able to tell, the only people who actually live that way are the wealthy.
lotsofpulp 5y ago
I was with your comment until the last part. There is no need to single out people with credit card debt versus not. Aid should be distributed with zero restrictions. Marginal income/wealth taxes will take care of ensuring poor people get more aid than rich people.
throw0101a 5y ago
> I don’t think the US government had any intention of truly getting the US out of the 2008 recession. Define "US government": > I see the following scenario: a weak stimulus plan, perhaps even weaker than what we’re talking about now, is crafted to win those extra GOP votes. The plan limits the rise in unemployment, but things are still pretty bad, with the rate peaking at something like 9 percent and coming down only slowly. And then Mitch McConnell says “See, government spending doesn’t work.” * https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/stimulus-arithmetic-wonkish-but-important/ https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/stimulus-arithm... * https://archive.is/3zNYD https://archive.is/3zNYD Some people in government were trying to improve the economy, while others were tamping down or even (arguably) sabotaging the recovery for political purposes. Ever notice how the debt and deficits were bad under Obama, then not a problem under Trump… and now suddenly they are again and there's sudden talk about not raising the debt ceiling under a Democratic president… again.

agent327 5y ago

Yeah, it would ensure nobody ever paid off their credit card again, for one thing... Just wait for the next round of debt elimination, and until then live the good life!

crate_barre 5y ago
Well, the banks never paid their debt off. So, what’s the difference? Might be a decent idea to give debt amnesty and cap all credit cards to 5k so no one ever falls into irreversible debt. If you did that, you may not even need to give everyone intense amounts of stimulus cash. Could also set up rent/mortgage limits nationwide. Unfettered capitalism in these areas wingclip the average person. Could also cap all private colleges to a max 10k a year. I’ve seen things as absurd as 50k a year. I’m not sure why it’s so hard to figure this out, it’s not working for the majority.
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- agent327 5y ago
  The difference: nothing really. It's just that society appears to be able to hold on for a while with dysfunctional banks, while if no one wants to work again because money flows in through credit cards anyway, it seems to me things would go awry pretty damn quickly. If you want to truly change the housing market, require that the owner of the house lives in that house full time as well. Under this scheme families can own one house, and companies cannot own houses at all. There wouldn't be any rent-seeking at all. As for private colleges, they are not a necessity, so let them do as they please. Just, maybe, print mandatory yearly statistics about how their graduates are actually doing - that's enough information to tell people whether it's worth enrolling or not.
  - thombat 5y ago
    So when I move cities I have to quickly sell my house, or let it stand empty (or maybe let people live rent-free to avoid squatters)? Feels like quite a barrier to employment mobility
    - agent327 5y ago
      You could also apply a grace period.
      - zzzzzzzza 5y ago
        or just move to a 100% land value tax instead.
        agent327 5y ago
        I don't believe that would achieve the goal of removing rent-seeking behaviour from rich house owners and corporations.
  - bluecalm 5y ago
    Let them do as they please as long as you don't hand out government guaranteed loans used to pay them. Colleges should have skin in the game - your graduates can't find decent paying job? - you are on the hook for the loan not the government. The incentives are just not right.
    - agent327 5y ago
      That I can agree with.
    - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
      What happens to people who didn’t graduate college but still had loans taken out for it?
      - 5y ago
- tharkun__ 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure capping a CC at 5k would not do much. This is a bit old info but the one I found: Experian data shows that, as of December 2016, the average credit limit of a consumer with a Deep SubPrime credit score was $1,834. For consumers with SubPrime credit scores, the average credit limit was $2,645. Consumers with NonPrime credit had an average credit limit of $4,674. Those who have Prime credit scores had an average credit limit of $7,593. And consumers lucky enough to have SuperPrime credit scores had an average credit limit of $11,357. $5k @~19% and the 4% min payment, you pay ~$200 for a total of over $8k over 137 months. That's a _lot_ of months that you're going without being able to put anything else on your CC, since you're only doing the minimum payments. What do people do then? Get yet another credit card. According to some quick Googling, the average American has about 4 credit cards.
- geoduck14 5y ago
  After the 2008 recession, the government did make some big changes that had an impact. They passed laws that capped the interchange fees of debit cards, which effectively killed debit cards They passed a law that prevented banks from changing the interest rate on credit cards in almost all cases - effectively forcing banks to charge high interest rates at the beginning, which then drove consumers to pay off their cards each month, so now most consumers are "transactors" (instead of "revolvers"). You now have SUPER HIGH limits (like $50k) for rich people, but they pay them off each month
z3rgl1ng 5y ago
So far as I've been able to tell, the only people who actually live that way are the wealthy.

lotsofpulp 5y ago

I was with your comment until the last part. There is no need to single out people with credit card debt versus not. Aid should be distributed with zero restrictions. Marginal income/wealth taxes will take care of ensuring poor people get more aid than rich people.

throw0101a 5y ago

> I don’t think the US government had any intention of truly getting the US out of the 2008 recession. Define "US government": > I see the following scenario: a weak stimulus plan, perhaps even weaker than what we’re talking about now, is crafted to win those extra GOP votes. The plan limits the rise in unemployment, but things are still pretty bad, with the rate peaking at something like 9 percent and coming down only slowly. And then Mitch McConnell says “See, government spending doesn’t work.” * https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/stimulus-arithmetic-wonkish-but-important/ https://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/stimulus-arithm... * https://archive.is/3zNYD https://archive.is/3zNYD Some people in government were trying to improve the economy, while others were tamping down or even (arguably) sabotaging the recovery for political purposes. Ever notice how the debt and deficits were bad under Obama, then not a problem under Trump… and now suddenly they are again and there's sudden talk about not raising the debt ceiling under a Democratic president… again.