5 ms·

I think partly what's going on is that some people have immune systems that have a hard time generating an effective response, whether or not they area vaccinat

I think partly what's going on is that some people have immune systems that have a hard time generating an effective response, whether or not they area vaccinated. Vaccination gives the immune system a chance to respond and memorize, as best it can. If it can't do that effectively, there is higher likelihood of a serious outcome.

__blockcipher__ 5y ago
I think this is very unlikely to significantly explain what we’ve seen. It’s much more likely just the natural result of artificial immunity waning much more rapidly than naturally acquired. As well as the fact that natural immunity involves exposure to the whole virus and therefore much broader types of epitopes for the immune system to “learn”.
- walterbell 5y ago
  In addition, intramuscular vaccines only provide blood/serum antibodies, while nasal infection also provides nasal/mucosal antibodies. Those who recover from Covid infection gain sterilizing immunity (less than 1% will be reinfected) that stops future infections in the upper respiratory tract. That's why the CDC website says Covid (leaky, non-sterilizing) vaccines only provide protection (in blood) against serious illness, not infection (in nose). A future nasal vaccine may provide sterilizing immunity (what most people assume they are getting from a "vaccine", like their personal experience with the MMR vaccine).
  - space_fountain 5y ago
    I think these things are hard to be sure about, but there still is good evidence that covid vaccines are sterilizing in a lot of cases. The rate of infection is still lower for vaccinated people right when controlling for other demographics?
    - jaywalk 5y ago
      >there still is good evidence that covid vaccines are sterilizing in a lot of cases. What? No, there isn't. The Covid vaccines we have today are not sterilizing. Period. This isn't a conspiracy theory or anything like that, it's just a simple fact.
      - space_fountain 5y ago
        Maybe I'm just not understanding the terms correctly. My understanding is that covid vaccines do still reduce the odds of becoming infected with covid when exposed. We don't have conclusive evidence of this because the sort of people who get vaccinated aren't identical to those who don't but it's decently convincing just based on case counts. I also see a number of studies suggesting vaccination reduces the probability of spreading covid even with delta.
        walterbell 5y ago
        Covid vaccines reduce symptoms. They increase the risk of asymptomatic transmission, since the person would otherwise self-isolate. BBC article on immunity, https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58270098 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58270098 > There is a whole different suite of antibodies (known as immunoglobulin As) in the nose and lungs, compared with those (immunoglobulin Gs) that we measure in the blood. The former is more important as a barrier to infection. Natural infection, because it is in the nose rather than a jab in the arm, may be a better route to those antibodies, and nasal vaccines are being investigated too. Intramuscular (arm injection) vs intranasal (inhaled) vaccines: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28165287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28165287 Nasal vaccine trials: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28284504 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28284504
        phonypc 5y ago
        >They increase the risk of asymptomatic transmission, since the person would otherwise self-isolate. This is conjecture. It's a hypothetical effect to take into consideration, but it's certainly not borne out in data that the vaccines increase asymptomatic transmission, much less for this reason.
  - 8note 5y ago
    "sterilizing" seems to get a different definition every time I hear it.
    - walterbell 5y ago
      There's a stable definition in textbooks. If 2021 consumer media is offering variable definitions, Cui Bono?
dukeofdoom 5y ago
I think also something that should be considered how the vaccine works if the immune system is already battling something. Anecdotally I know a person who's tumor had doubled in size after she took the vaccine. It could be coincidence. But at the same time, do we know how much an immune system directs it resources, and does it prioritize and immediate infection vs one that is latent.

__blockcipher__ 5y ago

I think this is very unlikely to significantly explain what we’ve seen. It’s much more likely just the natural result of artificial immunity waning much more rapidly than naturally acquired. As well as the fact that natural immunity involves exposure to the whole virus and therefore much broader types of epitopes for the immune system to “learn”.

walterbell 5y ago
In addition, intramuscular vaccines only provide blood/serum antibodies, while nasal infection also provides nasal/mucosal antibodies. Those who recover from Covid infection gain sterilizing immunity (less than 1% will be reinfected) that stops future infections in the upper respiratory tract. That's why the CDC website says Covid (leaky, non-sterilizing) vaccines only provide protection (in blood) against serious illness, not infection (in nose). A future nasal vaccine may provide sterilizing immunity (what most people assume they are getting from a "vaccine", like their personal experience with the MMR vaccine).
- space_fountain 5y ago
  I think these things are hard to be sure about, but there still is good evidence that covid vaccines are sterilizing in a lot of cases. The rate of infection is still lower for vaccinated people right when controlling for other demographics?
  - jaywalk 5y ago
    >there still is good evidence that covid vaccines are sterilizing in a lot of cases. What? No, there isn't. The Covid vaccines we have today are not sterilizing. Period. This isn't a conspiracy theory or anything like that, it's just a simple fact.
    - space_fountain 5y ago
      Maybe I'm just not understanding the terms correctly. My understanding is that covid vaccines do still reduce the odds of becoming infected with covid when exposed. We don't have conclusive evidence of this because the sort of people who get vaccinated aren't identical to those who don't but it's decently convincing just based on case counts. I also see a number of studies suggesting vaccination reduces the probability of spreading covid even with delta.
      - walterbell 5y ago
        Covid vaccines reduce symptoms. They increase the risk of asymptomatic transmission, since the person would otherwise self-isolate. BBC article on immunity, https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58270098 https://www.bbc.com/news/health-58270098 > There is a whole different suite of antibodies (known as immunoglobulin As) in the nose and lungs, compared with those (immunoglobulin Gs) that we measure in the blood. The former is more important as a barrier to infection. Natural infection, because it is in the nose rather than a jab in the arm, may be a better route to those antibodies, and nasal vaccines are being investigated too. Intramuscular (arm injection) vs intranasal (inhaled) vaccines: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28165287 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28165287 Nasal vaccine trials: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28284504 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28284504
        phonypc 5y ago
        >They increase the risk of asymptomatic transmission, since the person would otherwise self-isolate. This is conjecture. It's a hypothetical effect to take into consideration, but it's certainly not borne out in data that the vaccines increase asymptomatic transmission, much less for this reason.
- 8note 5y ago
  "sterilizing" seems to get a different definition every time I hear it.
  - walterbell 5y ago
    There's a stable definition in textbooks. If 2021 consumer media is offering variable definitions, Cui Bono?

dukeofdoom 5y ago

I think also something that should be considered how the vaccine works if the immune system is already battling something. Anecdotally I know a person who's tumor had doubled in size after she took the vaccine. It could be coincidence. But at the same time, do we know how much an immune system directs it resources, and does it prioritize and immediate infection vs one that is latent.