9 ms·

From Æthelflæd to Ælfthryth: The Idea of Queenship in Tenth-Century England

69 points by benbreen 5y ago

mattowen_uk 5y ago
Although fictional, the 5th season of the TV show Vikings covers these characters in some depth.
- dave333 5y ago
  As does the show "The Last Kingdom."
  - aproductguy 5y ago
    The books are so much better; big fan of Cornwell.
- partomniscient 5y ago
  Likewise, The Last Kingdom TV show covers these characters probably even more - Æthelflæd is in all 5 seasons [1] (although season 5 isn't out yet), and there's a lot of focus on Mercia. [1] https://the-last-kingdom.fandom.com/wiki/%C3%86thelfl%C3%A6d https://the-last-kingdom.fandom.com/wiki/%C3%86thelfl%C3%A6d Edit: Should have hit refresh rather than browse tabs opened a while ago...err, I agree with dave333
  - cmrdporcupine 5y ago
    Unfortunately that show has some odd changes to history done for the purpose of entertainment. Particularly on her character, and the history of Mercia and its relationships.
    - partomniscient 5y ago
      Yeah, there's all sorts of stuff they've apparently moved around, even from the books it was based on, which themselves were 'historical fiction'.
      - staticautomatic 5y ago
        Many of the plots are true, but of different characters or different locations.
HenryKissinger 5y ago
From Æthelflæd to Ælfthryth to X Æ A-12: The Idea of Billionaire Fatherhood in Twenty-First-Century America
- notjustanymike 5y ago
  That poor child is going to crash a DMV database some day.
  - partomniscient 5y ago
    Maybe they're little Bobby Tables great*many grandparents.
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago
  I'm all for an English spelling reform, one where Æ, ð, and þ return to their rightful place on our printed page.
philjohn 5y ago
Warwick School, which was purportedly founded by Æthelflæd in 914, is the oldest boys public school in the country, as well as the oldest surviving school founded by a Woman.
roschdal 5y ago
Queenships are awfully despotic.
- simonh 5y ago
  As against kingships?
  - bobthechef 5y ago
    Not sure what the OP means, but perhaps it has something to do with a higher incidence of war and such during the reigns of queens than kings. But I would be careful calling monarchy despotic as if it were synonymous. Democracies can be far worse. The mob is dangerous and easily shaped through propaganda (as we are witnessing). You can hide from Nero, but the mob is everywhere. Besides, feudal dynastic monarchies aren't Enlightenment despots. Feudal lords, the nobility, the Church, and having to consider the consequences of your actions for yourself during a long reign (vs. 4 year term) as well as the reign of your heir all put limits on the actual power a king has.
    - huetius 5y ago
      I’m all for dispelling Whig propaganda about the European Middle Ages, but I’m not sure medieval monarchies and contemporary democracies can compared in this way. As you mentioned, medieval societies were heavily variegated, religious, and did not have the means to manipulate nature in the way we do today, all of which were practical constraints on a wicked or despotic monarch. These constraints are now gone. I don’t think you could hide from Nero (or King John, to stay more overtly medieval) today. Also, mobs were not absent from medieval society (think of the antinomian, flagellant movements in Germany, or various anti-Jewish outbursts). They’re likely to be with us to greater or lesser degree until the end. My view is that for those of us concerned by the trajectory of modernity (Christian or not), the task is to better understand the phenomenon of totalitarianism, which we will have to contrast against a recovered, “re-realized” understanding of authority (as freedom from arbitrary power). But I don’t think medievalism, or pitting democracy vs monarchy will get us there.
  - 5y ago
verytrivial 5y ago
For a curious Wikipedia journey, I can recommend starting with the reigning UK monarch[1], then keep clicking the predecessor's link repeatedly. Marvel as the images lose colour, turn to paintings, then statues, drawings of painting (noting Henry VIII's power stance), statues, drawings of statues, tapestries, well-worn coins, then eventually evapourate into myth somehwere in Wessex. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II
- dandotway 5y ago
  > noting Henry VIII's power stance And also noting the prominent codpiece [1] covering Henry's family jewels in said portrait[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codpiece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codpiece [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII
- Zuider 5y ago
  At that stage in his life, the king was too weak and ill to stand, so the artist, Holbein, improvised, creating the iconic "power stance" image we associate with Henry VIII
  - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
    I thought it was the pose hugely obese people take on; legs wide, leaning back to counter belly-weight. Is there record from Holbein of this choice?
dash2 5y ago
From 1066 And All That [1]: Wave of Egg-Kings Soon after this event Egg-Kings were found on the thrones of all these kingdoms, such as Eggberd, Eggbreth, Eggfroth, etc. None of them, however, succeeded in becoming memorable except in so far as it is difficult to forget such names as Eggbirth, Eggbred, Eggbeard, Eggfish, etc. Nor is it even remembered by what kind of Eggdeath they perished. and the exam question: 8. Have you the faintest recollection of (1) Ethelbreth? (2) Athelthral? (3) Thruthelthrolth? [1] http://hotgiraffe.narod.ru/books/1066.html http://hotgiraffe.narod.ru/books/1066.html
bwanab 5y ago
The author should have pointed out that the historical background of Mercia was much more in line with the Britons (I.e, original Britons like the Welsh as opposed to the Saxons) in their perception of the concept of female rule. Not that Mercia wasn’t Saxon, but they were influenced by their closer neighbors. Aethelflaed very ably built up Merician defenses and came to the aide of her brother, the Saxon King Edward, on a number of occasions. As the daughter of Alfred, she had a lot of legitimacy for her rule after Aethelred’s death. It’s not inconceivable to believe that her legitimate rule was downplayed by her brother and subsequent Saxon rulers for their own political purposes.
- lloydatkinson 5y ago
  I highly recommend the show "The Last Kingdom" on Netflix as it covers exactly this!
  - RegW 5y ago
    So do I, of course remembering that this is a completely fictionalised version of events. There's no reason to believe that Æthelflæd was captured by vikings and impregnated by Erik Thurgilson before marrying Æthelred. Or that Æthelred was any more a misogynist than any other 10 century christian king. However, we can be pretty sure that Uhtred the bold wasn't even born at this point, never mind Æthelflæd's lover.
Tagbert 5y ago
You can get a lot of insight into this period and into what we learned to think of as the “dark ages” from the British History Podcast. His coverage brings these people to life and illuminates a time that was a lot more complex than most of us knew about. https://www.thebritishhistorypodcast.com/ https://www.thebritishhistorypodcast.com/

69 points by benbreen 5y ago

mattowen_uk 5y ago

Although fictional, the 5th season of the TV show Vikings covers these characters in some depth.

dave333 5y ago
As does the show "The Last Kingdom."
- aproductguy 5y ago
  The books are so much better; big fan of Cornwell.
partomniscient 5y ago
Likewise, The Last Kingdom TV show covers these characters probably even more - Æthelflæd is in all 5 seasons [1] (although season 5 isn't out yet), and there's a lot of focus on Mercia. [1] https://the-last-kingdom.fandom.com/wiki/%C3%86thelfl%C3%A6d https://the-last-kingdom.fandom.com/wiki/%C3%86thelfl%C3%A6d Edit: Should have hit refresh rather than browse tabs opened a while ago...err, I agree with dave333
- cmrdporcupine 5y ago
  Unfortunately that show has some odd changes to history done for the purpose of entertainment. Particularly on her character, and the history of Mercia and its relationships.
  - partomniscient 5y ago
    Yeah, there's all sorts of stuff they've apparently moved around, even from the books it was based on, which themselves were 'historical fiction'.
    - staticautomatic 5y ago
      Many of the plots are true, but of different characters or different locations.

HenryKissinger 5y ago

From Æthelflæd to Ælfthryth to X Æ A-12: The Idea of Billionaire Fatherhood in Twenty-First-Century America

notjustanymike 5y ago
That poor child is going to crash a DMV database some day.
- partomniscient 5y ago
  Maybe they're little Bobby Tables great*many grandparents.
cmrdporcupine 5y ago
I'm all for an English spelling reform, one where Æ, ð, and þ return to their rightful place on our printed page.

philjohn 5y ago

Warwick School, which was purportedly founded by Æthelflæd in 914, is the oldest boys public school in the country, as well as the oldest surviving school founded by a Woman.

roschdal 5y ago

Queenships are awfully despotic.

simonh 5y ago
As against kingships?
- bobthechef 5y ago
  Not sure what the OP means, but perhaps it has something to do with a higher incidence of war and such during the reigns of queens than kings. But I would be careful calling monarchy despotic as if it were synonymous. Democracies can be far worse. The mob is dangerous and easily shaped through propaganda (as we are witnessing). You can hide from Nero, but the mob is everywhere. Besides, feudal dynastic monarchies aren't Enlightenment despots. Feudal lords, the nobility, the Church, and having to consider the consequences of your actions for yourself during a long reign (vs. 4 year term) as well as the reign of your heir all put limits on the actual power a king has.
  - huetius 5y ago
    I’m all for dispelling Whig propaganda about the European Middle Ages, but I’m not sure medieval monarchies and contemporary democracies can compared in this way. As you mentioned, medieval societies were heavily variegated, religious, and did not have the means to manipulate nature in the way we do today, all of which were practical constraints on a wicked or despotic monarch. These constraints are now gone. I don’t think you could hide from Nero (or King John, to stay more overtly medieval) today. Also, mobs were not absent from medieval society (think of the antinomian, flagellant movements in Germany, or various anti-Jewish outbursts). They’re likely to be with us to greater or lesser degree until the end. My view is that for those of us concerned by the trajectory of modernity (Christian or not), the task is to better understand the phenomenon of totalitarianism, which we will have to contrast against a recovered, “re-realized” understanding of authority (as freedom from arbitrary power). But I don’t think medievalism, or pitting democracy vs monarchy will get us there.
- 5y ago

verytrivial 5y ago

For a curious Wikipedia journey, I can recommend starting with the reigning UK monarch[1], then keep clicking the predecessor's link repeatedly. Marvel as the images lose colour, turn to paintings, then statues, drawings of painting (noting Henry VIII's power stance), statues, drawings of statues, tapestries, well-worn coins, then eventually evapourate into myth somehwere in Wessex. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_II

dandotway 5y ago
> noting Henry VIII's power stance And also noting the prominent codpiece [1] covering Henry's family jewels in said portrait[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codpiece https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codpiece [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII
Zuider 5y ago
At that stage in his life, the king was too weak and ill to stand, so the artist, Holbein, improvised, creating the iconic "power stance" image we associate with Henry VIII
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  I thought it was the pose hugely obese people take on; legs wide, leaning back to counter belly-weight. Is there record from Holbein of this choice?

dash2 5y ago

From 1066 And All That [1]: Wave of Egg-Kings Soon after this event Egg-Kings were found on the thrones of all these kingdoms, such as Eggberd, Eggbreth, Eggfroth, etc. None of them, however, succeeded in becoming memorable except in so far as it is difficult to forget such names as Eggbirth, Eggbred, Eggbeard, Eggfish, etc. Nor is it even remembered by what kind of Eggdeath they perished. and the exam question: 8. Have you the faintest recollection of (1) Ethelbreth? (2) Athelthral? (3) Thruthelthrolth? [1] http://hotgiraffe.narod.ru/books/1066.html http://hotgiraffe.narod.ru/books/1066.html

bwanab 5y ago

The author should have pointed out that the historical background of Mercia was much more in line with the Britons (I.e, original Britons like the Welsh as opposed to the Saxons) in their perception of the concept of female rule. Not that Mercia wasn’t Saxon, but they were influenced by their closer neighbors. Aethelflaed very ably built up Merician defenses and came to the aide of her brother, the Saxon King Edward, on a number of occasions. As the daughter of Alfred, she had a lot of legitimacy for her rule after Aethelred’s death. It’s not inconceivable to believe that her legitimate rule was downplayed by her brother and subsequent Saxon rulers for their own political purposes.

lloydatkinson 5y ago
I highly recommend the show "The Last Kingdom" on Netflix as it covers exactly this!
- RegW 5y ago
  So do I, of course remembering that this is a completely fictionalised version of events. There's no reason to believe that Æthelflæd was captured by vikings and impregnated by Erik Thurgilson before marrying Æthelred. Or that Æthelred was any more a misogynist than any other 10 century christian king. However, we can be pretty sure that Uhtred the bold wasn't even born at this point, never mind Æthelflæd's lover.

Tagbert 5y ago

You can get a lot of insight into this period and into what we learned to think of as the “dark ages” from the British History Podcast. His coverage brings these people to life and illuminates a time that was a lot more complex than most of us knew about. https://www.thebritishhistorypodcast.com/ https://www.thebritishhistorypodcast.com/