6 ms·

No dog in this fight But just for clarity since you're top comment, I assume he means the gross support costs of the dollar via the military / empire industria

No dog in this fight But just for clarity since you're top comment, I assume he means the gross support costs of the dollar via the military / empire industrial complex -> (1) https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/the-hidden-costs-of-the-petrodollar https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/the-hidden-costs-of-the-...

rglover 5y ago
Correct. Let alone in addition to: - The credit card terminals - The power for Visa's servers - The power for Visa's customer support offices - The power for the phones at Visa's offices - The power at the credit agencies - The fuel for the money trucks - The power for the money printers - The power for the servers at all of the banks - The power for the atm's I could continue.
- yboris 5y ago
  Fair point about a lot of this. But if you want to make it fair, you're going to have to include the hardware costs of all the mining machines for the upkeep of Bitcoin. Furthermore, it doesn't seem appropriate to include the "cost" of Visa's customer support - since it's a service that Bitcoin doesn't provide. Fuel for money trucks isn't likely to be different if the ATMs were not there - there is already money trucks moving around, and a few pounds of cash extra do virtually no 'damage'. etc.
  - rglover 5y ago
    It's not about fairness, it's about freedom. You should want something like Bitcoin to exist. It's the first form of decentralized money in world history. That means that a majority of the world's root problems (e.g. war, inflation, etc) are solved. Ironically, Bitcoin is the most fair form of money that's ever existed. Governments can't print more of it, they can't manipulate it, they can't tax it (directly), they literally have no control over it. That's why the propaganda machine against it is relentless ("look at what this evil thing is doing, but ignore our never-ending stream of atrocities that make your life objectively more difficult!"). While this may fly over the head of most privileged Westerners, this means the difference between hostile regimes being funded and terrorizing people vs. a family being able to build a business for themselves and live a peaceful life. If you're against Bitcoin, you're against your fellow humans whether you realize it or not.
    - ti00 5y ago
      > That means that a majority of the world's root problems (e.g. war, inflation, etc) are solved. Isn't the root cause of war competition for resources (oil, food, land, etc.)? How has Bitcoin solved that problem?
      - rglover 5y ago
        Ultimately, yes. That problem is unsolvable. There will always be more of us than there is stuff to sustain us (unless you get rid of the people ;) ). Our survival—and arguably, sense of meaning—is dependent on our ability to produce value for others in exchange for money. What Bitcoin solves is removing the ability for that money to be manipulated. For example, in the U.S., if I'm at a bank or a large enough company, I can get 0% interest loans from the Federal Reserve. That would be fine if the money was backed by something, but it isn't. As the Federal Reserve, I can print more and more money ad infinitum and then give it away at 0% interest. This is literally money that is not backed by a commensurate amount of value (e.g., gold or some other precious asset like my time/labor). In this model, I can take resources of the table without replacing them rendering me, effectively, a parasite. The U.S. dollar (or any fiat currency) is not _real_ in the sense that it functions within a set of fixed, well-defined laws. Bitcoin on the other hand functions based on the laws of mathematics and its own, publicly exposed source code (which can only be changed via majority network consensus). It has a fixed supply that is doled out on a predictable schedule in exchange for creating value (a miner processing transactions). Because of this and its inherent decentralization—meaning it can't be controlled by one or a few small players—its value exists in it being incorruptible. In laymen terms, it means that what you make is _yours_ and can only be taken by force (and that's _if_ they can get access to your private keys). You can actually build savings and invest in the future. You can predictably plan for your business without having to constantly adjust for inflation. You can live without the boot of government on your chest. This, inherently, will make the world more peaceful in time. The more peace we have, the more our minds function properly (a mind in a state of fear is easily controlled and limited). The more our minds function properly, the more creative we are. The more creative we are, the more we can invent solutions to our problems, etc.
- edouard-harris 5y ago
  While that's certainly a long list of things, I'd be surprised if they added up to the six-orders-of-magnitude difference one would need to make these two costs remotely close to one another on a per-transaction basis. Bitcoin has its uses, but its comparative advantage does not lie in its superior energy efficiency as a medium for licit transactions. (And surely "money trucks" here can only be meant metaphorically? The vast majority of US dollars only ever exist as entries in electronic ledgers anyway.)
  - rglover 5y ago
    The lightning network makes the entire throughput argument beyond irrelevant: https://lightning.network/ https://lightning.network/
- simiones 5y ago
  The entire banking system (credit card terminals, support offices, credit agencies, money trucks, bank servers etc.) does much much more than bitcoin. Transactions are a tiny subset of banking, but they are the only thing that Bitcoin addresses. Bitcoin doesn't do loans; it doesn't do fraud protection (as in, you payed for this item, but the seller is not sending it to you); it doesn't address mistaken transactions; it doesn't address insurance; it doesn't address financial advice; it doesn't address day-to-day payments (the entire bitcoin network couldn't handle the day-to-day payments in a village). I could go on. Not to mention, the US military-industrial complex wouldn't lose 1 satoshi if the entire world moved to Bitcoin. So it's absurd on the face of it to attribute US military energy to the dollar.
  - rglover 5y ago
    All of the things you're describing are layers on top of the dollar, not the dollar itself. In the same way, Bitcoin requires investment to build up those systems. When people push propaganda against it, it deters the ability for that to happen (the exact point of the propaganda). For example, loans already exist: https://unchained.com/loans/ https://unchained.com/loans/. The internet didn't do lots of things back in the 90s and look at it today. This game is long-term and requires investment and attention _now_ to achieve its potential. Having a decentralized form of money is an incredible head start.
    - simiones 5y ago
      You were the one comparing the energy expenditure of Bitcoin with the entire banking system. I was merely pointing out why that comparison is irrelevant.
- pornel 5y ago
  Yes, please continue, because all of these things are still a rounding error compared to Bitcoin, despite serving more functions and handling orders of magnitude more transactions than Bitcoin.
  - rglover 5y ago
    Not the lightning network, which would be the primary network used for day-to-day transactions: https://lightning.network/ https://lightning.network/ > Scalability. Capable of millions to billions of transactions per second across the network. Capacity blows away legacy payment rails by many orders of magnitude. Attaching payment per action/click is now possible without custodians.
zepto 5y ago
Assuming that the military/industrial complex would disappear if bitcoin prevailed over the dollar seems very questionable.
- simiones 5y ago
  Yes, that's one of the most bizarre positions I've seen from proponents of crypto. It's somehow oddly optimistic?
- rglover 5y ago
  It's the entire reason that it exists. If you can print endless amounts of money without accountability (and convince people it has value that it doesn't), you can do what you want. If people realize "oh, this Bitcoin thing works just like those dollars and a government can't manipulate it," in time, yes, the military industrial complex will collapse. Not immediately and not without a fight, but eventually, yes.
  - zepto 5y ago
    You haven’t offered any kind of explanation at all here. If there is a ‘fight’ involved, how will bitcoin owners fight against the military industrial complex?
    - rglover 5y ago
      By removing their money from the existing system and moving it into Bitcoin. If the dollar is the air supply, Bitcoin is the plastic bag over their proverbial head.
      - zepto 5y ago
        It’s pretty easy to stop businesses from accepting Bitcoin if you are the military industrial complex. Black markets are hard to eliminate altogether but no real threat.
        5y ago
throwdecro 5y ago
It's not like the need for military protection goes away with Bitcoin. People will attack each other to get what other people have, justly or unjustly, the same as they always have done.

rglover 5y ago

Correct. Let alone in addition to: - The credit card terminals - The power for Visa's servers - The power for Visa's customer support offices - The power for the phones at Visa's offices - The power at the credit agencies - The fuel for the money trucks - The power for the money printers - The power for the servers at all of the banks - The power for the atm's I could continue.

yboris 5y ago
Fair point about a lot of this. But if you want to make it fair, you're going to have to include the hardware costs of all the mining machines for the upkeep of Bitcoin. Furthermore, it doesn't seem appropriate to include the "cost" of Visa's customer support - since it's a service that Bitcoin doesn't provide. Fuel for money trucks isn't likely to be different if the ATMs were not there - there is already money trucks moving around, and a few pounds of cash extra do virtually no 'damage'. etc.
- rglover 5y ago
  It's not about fairness, it's about freedom. You should want something like Bitcoin to exist. It's the first form of decentralized money in world history. That means that a majority of the world's root problems (e.g. war, inflation, etc) are solved. Ironically, Bitcoin is the most fair form of money that's ever existed. Governments can't print more of it, they can't manipulate it, they can't tax it (directly), they literally have no control over it. That's why the propaganda machine against it is relentless ("look at what this evil thing is doing, but ignore our never-ending stream of atrocities that make your life objectively more difficult!"). While this may fly over the head of most privileged Westerners, this means the difference between hostile regimes being funded and terrorizing people vs. a family being able to build a business for themselves and live a peaceful life. If you're against Bitcoin, you're against your fellow humans whether you realize it or not.
  - ti00 5y ago
    > That means that a majority of the world's root problems (e.g. war, inflation, etc) are solved. Isn't the root cause of war competition for resources (oil, food, land, etc.)? How has Bitcoin solved that problem?
    - rglover 5y ago
      Ultimately, yes. That problem is unsolvable. There will always be more of us than there is stuff to sustain us (unless you get rid of the people ;) ). Our survival—and arguably, sense of meaning—is dependent on our ability to produce value for others in exchange for money. What Bitcoin solves is removing the ability for that money to be manipulated. For example, in the U.S., if I'm at a bank or a large enough company, I can get 0% interest loans from the Federal Reserve. That would be fine if the money was backed by something, but it isn't. As the Federal Reserve, I can print more and more money ad infinitum and then give it away at 0% interest. This is literally money that is not backed by a commensurate amount of value (e.g., gold or some other precious asset like my time/labor). In this model, I can take resources of the table without replacing them rendering me, effectively, a parasite. The U.S. dollar (or any fiat currency) is not _real_ in the sense that it functions within a set of fixed, well-defined laws. Bitcoin on the other hand functions based on the laws of mathematics and its own, publicly exposed source code (which can only be changed via majority network consensus). It has a fixed supply that is doled out on a predictable schedule in exchange for creating value (a miner processing transactions). Because of this and its inherent decentralization—meaning it can't be controlled by one or a few small players—its value exists in it being incorruptible. In laymen terms, it means that what you make is _yours_ and can only be taken by force (and that's _if_ they can get access to your private keys). You can actually build savings and invest in the future. You can predictably plan for your business without having to constantly adjust for inflation. You can live without the boot of government on your chest. This, inherently, will make the world more peaceful in time. The more peace we have, the more our minds function properly (a mind in a state of fear is easily controlled and limited). The more our minds function properly, the more creative we are. The more creative we are, the more we can invent solutions to our problems, etc.
edouard-harris 5y ago
While that's certainly a long list of things, I'd be surprised if they added up to the six-orders-of-magnitude difference one would need to make these two costs remotely close to one another on a per-transaction basis. Bitcoin has its uses, but its comparative advantage does not lie in its superior energy efficiency as a medium for licit transactions. (And surely "money trucks" here can only be meant metaphorically? The vast majority of US dollars only ever exist as entries in electronic ledgers anyway.)
- rglover 5y ago
  The lightning network makes the entire throughput argument beyond irrelevant: https://lightning.network/ https://lightning.network/
simiones 5y ago
The entire banking system (credit card terminals, support offices, credit agencies, money trucks, bank servers etc.) does much much more than bitcoin. Transactions are a tiny subset of banking, but they are the only thing that Bitcoin addresses. Bitcoin doesn't do loans; it doesn't do fraud protection (as in, you payed for this item, but the seller is not sending it to you); it doesn't address mistaken transactions; it doesn't address insurance; it doesn't address financial advice; it doesn't address day-to-day payments (the entire bitcoin network couldn't handle the day-to-day payments in a village). I could go on. Not to mention, the US military-industrial complex wouldn't lose 1 satoshi if the entire world moved to Bitcoin. So it's absurd on the face of it to attribute US military energy to the dollar.
- rglover 5y ago
  All of the things you're describing are layers on top of the dollar, not the dollar itself. In the same way, Bitcoin requires investment to build up those systems. When people push propaganda against it, it deters the ability for that to happen (the exact point of the propaganda). For example, loans already exist: https://unchained.com/loans/ https://unchained.com/loans/. The internet didn't do lots of things back in the 90s and look at it today. This game is long-term and requires investment and attention _now_ to achieve its potential. Having a decentralized form of money is an incredible head start.
  - simiones 5y ago
    You were the one comparing the energy expenditure of Bitcoin with the entire banking system. I was merely pointing out why that comparison is irrelevant.
pornel 5y ago
Yes, please continue, because all of these things are still a rounding error compared to Bitcoin, despite serving more functions and handling orders of magnitude more transactions than Bitcoin.
- rglover 5y ago
  Not the lightning network, which would be the primary network used for day-to-day transactions: https://lightning.network/ https://lightning.network/ > Scalability. Capable of millions to billions of transactions per second across the network. Capacity blows away legacy payment rails by many orders of magnitude. Attaching payment per action/click is now possible without custodians.

zepto 5y ago

Assuming that the military/industrial complex would disappear if bitcoin prevailed over the dollar seems very questionable.

simiones 5y ago
Yes, that's one of the most bizarre positions I've seen from proponents of crypto. It's somehow oddly optimistic?
rglover 5y ago
It's the entire reason that it exists. If you can print endless amounts of money without accountability (and convince people it has value that it doesn't), you can do what you want. If people realize "oh, this Bitcoin thing works just like those dollars and a government can't manipulate it," in time, yes, the military industrial complex will collapse. Not immediately and not without a fight, but eventually, yes.
- zepto 5y ago
  You haven’t offered any kind of explanation at all here. If there is a ‘fight’ involved, how will bitcoin owners fight against the military industrial complex?
  - rglover 5y ago
    By removing their money from the existing system and moving it into Bitcoin. If the dollar is the air supply, Bitcoin is the plastic bag over their proverbial head.
    - zepto 5y ago
      It’s pretty easy to stop businesses from accepting Bitcoin if you are the military industrial complex. Black markets are hard to eliminate altogether but no real threat.
      - 5y ago

throwdecro 5y ago

It's not like the need for military protection goes away with Bitcoin. People will attack each other to get what other people have, justly or unjustly, the same as they always have done.