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https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-consumption-transaction-comparison-visa/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-co.

by yboris 5y ago

https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-consumption-transaction-comparison-visa/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-co... 1 bitcoin transaction ~ 1,800 kWh 100,000 visa transactions ~ 150 kWh

giuliomagnifico 5y ago
Yes but: 1 Bitcoin ~ validated by millions of nodes 100,000 visa transaction ~ validated by one entity
- yboris 5y ago
  Has there been, in the last few decades, any concerns about the validity of the Visa transactions?
  - linschn 5y ago
    Of course, have you never heard of credit card fraud?
    - colinmhayes 5y ago
      Credit card fraud is effectively the same as someone stealing your bitcoin wallet password. Bitcoin does nothing to stop that. In fact, credit cards are much better at stopping fraud since they'll just undo any transactions you dispute.
  - giuliomagnifico 5y ago
    Maybe not, maybe yes and Visa hasn’t released the new because it would be disastrous publicity for the company.
aresant 5y ago
No dog in this fight But just for clarity since you're top comment, I assume he means the gross support costs of the dollar via the military / empire industrial complex -> (1) https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/the-hidden-costs-of-the-petrodollar https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/the-hidden-costs-of-the-...
- rglover 5y ago
  Correct. Let alone in addition to: - The credit card terminals - The power for Visa's servers - The power for Visa's customer support offices - The power for the phones at Visa's offices - The power at the credit agencies - The fuel for the money trucks - The power for the money printers - The power for the servers at all of the banks - The power for the atm's I could continue.
  - yboris 5y ago
    Fair point about a lot of this. But if you want to make it fair, you're going to have to include the hardware costs of all the mining machines for the upkeep of Bitcoin. Furthermore, it doesn't seem appropriate to include the "cost" of Visa's customer support - since it's a service that Bitcoin doesn't provide. Fuel for money trucks isn't likely to be different if the ATMs were not there - there is already money trucks moving around, and a few pounds of cash extra do virtually no 'damage'. etc.
    - rglover 5y ago
      It's not about fairness, it's about freedom. You should want something like Bitcoin to exist. It's the first form of decentralized money in world history. That means that a majority of the world's root problems (e.g. war, inflation, etc) are solved. Ironically, Bitcoin is the most fair form of money that's ever existed. Governments can't print more of it, they can't manipulate it, they can't tax it (directly), they literally have no control over it. That's why the propaganda machine against it is relentless ("look at what this evil thing is doing, but ignore our never-ending stream of atrocities that make your life objectively more difficult!"). While this may fly over the head of most privileged Westerners, this means the difference between hostile regimes being funded and terrorizing people vs. a family being able to build a business for themselves and live a peaceful life. If you're against Bitcoin, you're against your fellow humans whether you realize it or not.
      - ti00 5y ago
        > That means that a majority of the world's root problems (e.g. war, inflation, etc) are solved. Isn't the root cause of war competition for resources (oil, food, land, etc.)? How has Bitcoin solved that problem?
rglover 5y ago
Cute graph. What's the source?
coralreef 5y ago
Now include a future discounted transaction flow of a growing sidechain (Lightning network) that also "settles" transactions off the main chain. 1 main chain transaction != 1 transaction In the same way Visa uses a centralized database to "handle" millions of transactions, Coinbase/Paypal/Square can offer inter-user transfers that occur off the main chain too, scaling to the millions. These are apples and oranges, if you want to compare transactions, you should first define what a "transaction" is. A bicycle is more energy efficient than a car, but that doesn't mean they solve the same problem.

by yboris 5y ago

giuliomagnifico 5y ago

Yes but: 1 Bitcoin ~ validated by millions of nodes 100,000 visa transaction ~ validated by one entity

yboris 5y ago
Has there been, in the last few decades, any concerns about the validity of the Visa transactions?
- linschn 5y ago
  Of course, have you never heard of credit card fraud?
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    Credit card fraud is effectively the same as someone stealing your bitcoin wallet password. Bitcoin does nothing to stop that. In fact, credit cards are much better at stopping fraud since they'll just undo any transactions you dispute.
- giuliomagnifico 5y ago
  Maybe not, maybe yes and Visa hasn’t released the new because it would be disastrous publicity for the company.

aresant 5y ago

No dog in this fight But just for clarity since you're top comment, I assume he means the gross support costs of the dollar via the military / empire industrial complex -> (1) https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/the-hidden-costs-of-the-petrodollar https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/the-hidden-costs-of-the-...

rglover 5y ago
Correct. Let alone in addition to: - The credit card terminals - The power for Visa's servers - The power for Visa's customer support offices - The power for the phones at Visa's offices - The power at the credit agencies - The fuel for the money trucks - The power for the money printers - The power for the servers at all of the banks - The power for the atm's I could continue.
- yboris 5y ago
  Fair point about a lot of this. But if you want to make it fair, you're going to have to include the hardware costs of all the mining machines for the upkeep of Bitcoin. Furthermore, it doesn't seem appropriate to include the "cost" of Visa's customer support - since it's a service that Bitcoin doesn't provide. Fuel for money trucks isn't likely to be different if the ATMs were not there - there is already money trucks moving around, and a few pounds of cash extra do virtually no 'damage'. etc.
  - rglover 5y ago
    It's not about fairness, it's about freedom. You should want something like Bitcoin to exist. It's the first form of decentralized money in world history. That means that a majority of the world's root problems (e.g. war, inflation, etc) are solved. Ironically, Bitcoin is the most fair form of money that's ever existed. Governments can't print more of it, they can't manipulate it, they can't tax it (directly), they literally have no control over it. That's why the propaganda machine against it is relentless ("look at what this evil thing is doing, but ignore our never-ending stream of atrocities that make your life objectively more difficult!"). While this may fly over the head of most privileged Westerners, this means the difference between hostile regimes being funded and terrorizing people vs. a family being able to build a business for themselves and live a peaceful life. If you're against Bitcoin, you're against your fellow humans whether you realize it or not.
    - ti00 5y ago
      > That means that a majority of the world's root problems (e.g. war, inflation, etc) are solved. Isn't the root cause of war competition for resources (oil, food, land, etc.)? How has Bitcoin solved that problem?

rglover 5y ago

Cute graph. What's the source?

coralreef 5y ago

Now include a future discounted transaction flow of a growing sidechain (Lightning network) that also "settles" transactions off the main chain. 1 main chain transaction != 1 transaction In the same way Visa uses a centralized database to "handle" millions of transactions, Coinbase/Paypal/Square can offer inter-user transfers that occur off the main chain too, scaling to the millions. These are apples and oranges, if you want to compare transactions, you should first define what a "transaction" is. A bicycle is more energy efficient than a car, but that doesn't mean they solve the same problem.