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Except we had to change the definition of “working vaccine” to fit these new therapies. Traditionally a vaccine has to keep efficacy for a year. We haven’t got

Except we had to change the definition of “working vaccine” to fit these new therapies. Traditionally a vaccine has to keep efficacy for a year. We haven’t got a year of data but the efficacy has dropped significantly

tombert 5y ago
I don't know enough about vaccines to dispute what you're saying (though I feel like I have heard contrary data on this), but even if it's only fully effective for 8-9 months, isn't the fact that we had a vaccine that accomplished at least some of its goals safely designed and tested in record time a really cool thing? Even if it's only effective for 6 months, that's still 6 months of slowing the spread, and conceivably we can extend the efficacy by administering booster shots.
SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
It's not as though the concept of a vaccine booster is new, after all we get annual flu shots. It's also a question of efficacy of the vaccine versus the new predominate variant. Delta didn't exist when the vaccines were finalized.
mywittyname 5y ago
My understanding is that all vaccines have similar "effectiveness curves", in that they are highly effective in the first weeks, and effectiveness degrades over time down to some low base level of immunity, where your body is no longer actively producing antibodies, but it has the ability to restart production quickly if necessary.
raphlinus 5y ago
I call bullshit. Antibodies wane but the memory cell response is robust and holds up over what looks to be a pretty long period (studied intensively for 6 months but with no sign of decline). Here's a new paper that shows that in detail (paper itself is dense but Twitter thread is fairly accessible): https://twitter.com/rishirajgoel/status/1448711946010710023 https://twitter.com/rishirajgoel/status/1448711946010710023 By basically all measures, these vaccines work better than the flu vaccine, which for some reason doesn't attract the same sort of criticism.
- vibrato2 5y ago
  I call bullshit. Your source doesn’t address the efficacy decrease at all. Yes, there are lasting changes from the vaccine, no that doesn’t indicate much about level of protection. I definitely would never get a flu shot with its ridiculous efficacy numbers. If you forced me to get it to remain a part of society it would require my resistance by any means. If you didn’t respond like an asshole id give you a couple sources. But, bullshit and all.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- angelzen 5y ago
  Great link, summarizing recent research showing strong post-vaccination long-term B cell response. Then Twitter surfaces a recent breakthrough infection study among 620k US veterans in the "More Tweets" section: https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1448815262522773520 https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1448815262522773520 After six months from initial vaccination (Mar-Aug) the J&J vaccine appears to have zero (!) VE against infection. Pfizer is holding at a modest 53% against infection. Worse, the curve has the same shape as J&J, merely 2 months delayed. In spite of very promising cellular and molecular studies, I am left scratching my head: are the vaccines any good at preventing infection in the long term, where we define long term as a few years down the road? The question is somewhat rhetorical, as we don't have epi studies from 2025 yet. PS. I am more than happy to make a distinction between infection and severe infection. The main reason I pay attention to VE against infection are vaccine mandates and the whole stigma buildup against unvaccinated people. PS2. > the flu vaccine, which for some reason doesn't attract the same sort of criticism. People are free to get or not get a flu vaccine. Not getting a covid vaccine means loss of livelihood, loss of basic liberties and social ostracism.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    > People are free to get or not get a flu vaccine. Not getting a covid vaccine means loss of livelihood, loss of basic liberties and social ostracism. Gee, I wonder if something happened recently that made stopping Covid more pressing than making everyone get a flu shot? Sure seems like there’s some reason, maybe a few hundred thousand reasons, why as a society we’re taking Covid and vaccination against it more seriously than the flu.
JamesBarney 5y ago
It's efficacy as measured as "chances of getting sick" declines significantly, but it's still pretty effective. But the protection against hospitalization and death is still very robust even after almost a year.

tombert 5y ago

I don't know enough about vaccines to dispute what you're saying (though I feel like I have heard contrary data on this), but even if it's only fully effective for 8-9 months, isn't the fact that we had a vaccine that accomplished at least some of its goals safely designed and tested in record time a really cool thing? Even if it's only effective for 6 months, that's still 6 months of slowing the spread, and conceivably we can extend the efficacy by administering booster shots.

SketchySeaBeast 5y ago

It's not as though the concept of a vaccine booster is new, after all we get annual flu shots. It's also a question of efficacy of the vaccine versus the new predominate variant. Delta didn't exist when the vaccines were finalized.

mywittyname 5y ago

My understanding is that all vaccines have similar "effectiveness curves", in that they are highly effective in the first weeks, and effectiveness degrades over time down to some low base level of immunity, where your body is no longer actively producing antibodies, but it has the ability to restart production quickly if necessary.

raphlinus 5y ago

I call bullshit. Antibodies wane but the memory cell response is robust and holds up over what looks to be a pretty long period (studied intensively for 6 months but with no sign of decline). Here's a new paper that shows that in detail (paper itself is dense but Twitter thread is fairly accessible): https://twitter.com/rishirajgoel/status/1448711946010710023 https://twitter.com/rishirajgoel/status/1448711946010710023 By basically all measures, these vaccines work better than the flu vaccine, which for some reason doesn't attract the same sort of criticism.

vibrato2 5y ago
I call bullshit. Your source doesn’t address the efficacy decrease at all. Yes, there are lasting changes from the vaccine, no that doesn’t indicate much about level of protection. I definitely would never get a flu shot with its ridiculous efficacy numbers. If you forced me to get it to remain a part of society it would require my resistance by any means. If you didn’t respond like an asshole id give you a couple sources. But, bullshit and all.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
angelzen 5y ago
Great link, summarizing recent research showing strong post-vaccination long-term B cell response. Then Twitter surfaces a recent breakthrough infection study among 620k US veterans in the "More Tweets" section: https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1448815262522773520 https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status/1448815262522773520 After six months from initial vaccination (Mar-Aug) the J&J vaccine appears to have zero (!) VE against infection. Pfizer is holding at a modest 53% against infection. Worse, the curve has the same shape as J&J, merely 2 months delayed. In spite of very promising cellular and molecular studies, I am left scratching my head: are the vaccines any good at preventing infection in the long term, where we define long term as a few years down the road? The question is somewhat rhetorical, as we don't have epi studies from 2025 yet. PS. I am more than happy to make a distinction between infection and severe infection. The main reason I pay attention to VE against infection are vaccine mandates and the whole stigma buildup against unvaccinated people. PS2. > the flu vaccine, which for some reason doesn't attract the same sort of criticism. People are free to get or not get a flu vaccine. Not getting a covid vaccine means loss of livelihood, loss of basic liberties and social ostracism.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  > People are free to get or not get a flu vaccine. Not getting a covid vaccine means loss of livelihood, loss of basic liberties and social ostracism. Gee, I wonder if something happened recently that made stopping Covid more pressing than making everyone get a flu shot? Sure seems like there’s some reason, maybe a few hundred thousand reasons, why as a society we’re taking Covid and vaccination against it more seriously than the flu.

JamesBarney 5y ago

It's efficacy as measured as "chances of getting sick" declines significantly, but it's still pretty effective. But the protection against hospitalization and death is still very robust even after almost a year.