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Never forget the enormous pollution that Bitcoin generates! https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption/ https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consum

by yboris 5y ago

Never forget the enormous pollution that Bitcoin generates! https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption/ https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption/ Currently comparable to the entire energy consumption of Poland!

rglover 5y ago
Obligatory: now do the petrol dollar.
- yboris 5y ago
  https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-consumption-transaction-comparison-visa/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-co... 1 bitcoin transaction ~ 1,800 kWh 100,000 visa transactions ~ 150 kWh
  - giuliomagnifico 5y ago
    Yes but: 1 Bitcoin ~ validated by millions of nodes 100,000 visa transaction ~ validated by one entity
    - yboris 5y ago
      Has there been, in the last few decades, any concerns about the validity of the Visa transactions?
      - linschn 5y ago
        Of course, have you never heard of credit card fraud?
        colinmhayes 5y ago
        Credit card fraud is effectively the same as someone stealing your bitcoin wallet password. Bitcoin does nothing to stop that. In fact, credit cards are much better at stopping fraud since they'll just undo any transactions you dispute.
      - giuliomagnifico 5y ago
        Maybe not, maybe yes and Visa hasn’t released the new because it would be disastrous publicity for the company.
  - aresant 5y ago
    No dog in this fight But just for clarity since you're top comment, I assume he means the gross support costs of the dollar via the military / empire industrial complex -> (1) https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/the-hidden-costs-of-the-petrodollar https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/the-hidden-costs-of-the-...
    - rglover 5y ago
      Correct. Let alone in addition to: - The credit card terminals - The power for Visa's servers - The power for Visa's customer support offices - The power for the phones at Visa's offices - The power at the credit agencies - The fuel for the money trucks - The power for the money printers - The power for the servers at all of the banks - The power for the atm's I could continue.
      - yboris 5y ago
        Fair point about a lot of this. But if you want to make it fair, you're going to have to include the hardware costs of all the mining machines for the upkeep of Bitcoin. Furthermore, it doesn't seem appropriate to include the "cost" of Visa's customer support - since it's a service that Bitcoin doesn't provide. Fuel for money trucks isn't likely to be different if the ATMs were not there - there is already money trucks moving around, and a few pounds of cash extra do virtually no 'damage'. etc.
        rglover 5y ago
        It's not about fairness, it's about freedom. You should want something like Bitcoin to exist. It's the first form of decentralized money in world history. That means that a majority of the world's root problems (e.g. war, inflation, etc) are solved. Ironically, Bitcoin is the most fair form of money that's ever existed. Governments can't print more of it, they can't manipulate it, they can't tax it (directly), they literally have no control over it. That's why the propaganda machine against it is relentless ("look at what this evil thing is doing, but ignore our never-ending stream of atrocities that make your life objectively more difficult!"). While this may fly over the head of most privileged Westerners, this means the difference between hostile regimes being funded and terrorizing people vs. a family being able to build a business for themselves and live a peaceful life. If you're against Bitcoin, you're against your fellow humans whether you realize it or not.
  - rglover 5y ago
    Cute graph. What's the source?
  - coralreef 5y ago
    Now include a future discounted transaction flow of a growing sidechain (Lightning network) that also "settles" transactions off the main chain. 1 main chain transaction != 1 transaction In the same way Visa uses a centralized database to "handle" millions of transactions, Coinbase/Paypal/Square can offer inter-user transfers that occur off the main chain too, scaling to the millions. These are apples and oranges, if you want to compare transactions, you should first define what a "transaction" is. A bicycle is more energy efficient than a car, but that doesn't mean they solve the same problem.
hirako2000 5y ago
It's by design, not a side effect.
- RedBeetDeadpool 5y ago
  To add on to this comment, its ultimately the market that decides how much energy is spent for one bitcoin. Anything else of value will expend the same amount of capital to meet demand. Fracking in oil was a great example because even when the difficulty to acquire this asset increased the market was willing to expend more capital for it as long as it made economical sense. Which is another way of saying, bitcoin has nothing to do with pollution and that responsibility lies solely with the energy sector and how its regulated.

by yboris 5y ago

rglover 5y ago

Obligatory: now do the petrol dollar.

yboris 5y ago
https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-consumption-transaction-comparison-visa/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/881541/bitcoin-energy-co... 1 bitcoin transaction ~ 1,800 kWh 100,000 visa transactions ~ 150 kWh
- giuliomagnifico 5y ago
  Yes but: 1 Bitcoin ~ validated by millions of nodes 100,000 visa transaction ~ validated by one entity
  - yboris 5y ago
    Has there been, in the last few decades, any concerns about the validity of the Visa transactions?
    - linschn 5y ago
      Of course, have you never heard of credit card fraud?
      - colinmhayes 5y ago
        Credit card fraud is effectively the same as someone stealing your bitcoin wallet password. Bitcoin does nothing to stop that. In fact, credit cards are much better at stopping fraud since they'll just undo any transactions you dispute.
    - giuliomagnifico 5y ago
      Maybe not, maybe yes and Visa hasn’t released the new because it would be disastrous publicity for the company.
- aresant 5y ago
  No dog in this fight But just for clarity since you're top comment, I assume he means the gross support costs of the dollar via the military / empire industrial complex -> (1) https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/the-hidden-costs-of-the-petrodollar https://bitcoinmagazine.com/culture/the-hidden-costs-of-the-...
  - rglover 5y ago
    Correct. Let alone in addition to: - The credit card terminals - The power for Visa's servers - The power for Visa's customer support offices - The power for the phones at Visa's offices - The power at the credit agencies - The fuel for the money trucks - The power for the money printers - The power for the servers at all of the banks - The power for the atm's I could continue.
    - yboris 5y ago
      Fair point about a lot of this. But if you want to make it fair, you're going to have to include the hardware costs of all the mining machines for the upkeep of Bitcoin. Furthermore, it doesn't seem appropriate to include the "cost" of Visa's customer support - since it's a service that Bitcoin doesn't provide. Fuel for money trucks isn't likely to be different if the ATMs were not there - there is already money trucks moving around, and a few pounds of cash extra do virtually no 'damage'. etc.
      - rglover 5y ago
        It's not about fairness, it's about freedom. You should want something like Bitcoin to exist. It's the first form of decentralized money in world history. That means that a majority of the world's root problems (e.g. war, inflation, etc) are solved. Ironically, Bitcoin is the most fair form of money that's ever existed. Governments can't print more of it, they can't manipulate it, they can't tax it (directly), they literally have no control over it. That's why the propaganda machine against it is relentless ("look at what this evil thing is doing, but ignore our never-ending stream of atrocities that make your life objectively more difficult!"). While this may fly over the head of most privileged Westerners, this means the difference between hostile regimes being funded and terrorizing people vs. a family being able to build a business for themselves and live a peaceful life. If you're against Bitcoin, you're against your fellow humans whether you realize it or not.
- rglover 5y ago
  Cute graph. What's the source?
- coralreef 5y ago
  Now include a future discounted transaction flow of a growing sidechain (Lightning network) that also "settles" transactions off the main chain. 1 main chain transaction != 1 transaction In the same way Visa uses a centralized database to "handle" millions of transactions, Coinbase/Paypal/Square can offer inter-user transfers that occur off the main chain too, scaling to the millions. These are apples and oranges, if you want to compare transactions, you should first define what a "transaction" is. A bicycle is more energy efficient than a car, but that doesn't mean they solve the same problem.

hirako2000 5y ago

It's by design, not a side effect.

RedBeetDeadpool 5y ago
To add on to this comment, its ultimately the market that decides how much energy is spent for one bitcoin. Anything else of value will expend the same amount of capital to meet demand. Fracking in oil was a great example because even when the difficulty to acquire this asset increased the market was willing to expend more capital for it as long as it made economical sense. Which is another way of saying, bitcoin has nothing to do with pollution and that responsibility lies solely with the energy sector and how its regulated.