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In math there is the concept of having a first element of a series and no one questions what was the element before the first element because if you can find an

In math there is the concept of having a first element of a series and no one questions what was the element before the first element because if you can find an element before the first element then by definition that element you thought was first is not the first. In light of this when people try to disprove God by saying then who created God. God is the first element so if you find out that who you think your God is is created then by definition he fails to fulfill the conditions required to be God. You have to look elsewhere. Ok in english the term God is not precise enough, I'll turn to arabic to try to explain my point because this is what I'm the most familiar with. Ilah is the arabic word for divinity. Wahid means 1. Ahad means the only one. Allah means The God (The only God). I don't find it absurd to think that there is The God (Allah): - A being who transcends time because he created time. - A being who transcends logic because he created it and all its rules. - A being who transcends the physical world because he created it.

flyingchipmann 5y ago
I agree the logic. To me conceptually god and the creator in cthulhu maybe the same
1e-9 5y ago
> In math there is the concept of having a first element... There is also the mathematical concept of not having a first element of a sequence, where each element has an infinite number of elements indexed before it. You seem to be arguing that the existence of a mathematical concept implies that the universe must follow it. In this case, you have one concept that implies a first element and another that implies no first element. They can’t both be true.
- nxmnxm99 5y ago
  No, he’s implying that an infinite series doesn’t have to be infinite in both directions to be infinite.
  - 1e-9 5y ago
    >...doesn’t have to be... That argues that there might be a first. To be clear, I’m not saying there isn’t a first. I’m just saying this particular argument doesn’t support the assertion.
diskzero 5y ago
I was raised in the evangelical Christian tradition and have since had my views broken down and rebuilt numerous times. I am still seeking. I am ignorant about Islam, other than the way it is represented in popular media and from some basic readings. Your descriptions of God are interesting. Are these concepts that come from reading the Koran?
- tdrdt 5y ago
  Those concepts can also be found in the Christian bible. Maybe the biblical series by Jordan Peterson (@YT) are something for you.
- talhah 5y ago
  > Your descriptions of God are interesting. Are these concepts that come from reading the Koran? These descriptions are in fact sourced from the Qur'an. Allah gives us his description throughout the Qur'an. He has 99 names/attributes which you can look up. Below are example verses where he gives us part of the 99 names. It's a recurring theme in the Qur'an where He emphasizes His attributes. If you would like to read a Qur'an I would recommend "The Clear Quran, a thematic translation". ""He is Allah—there is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him: Knower of the seen and unseen. He is the Most Compassionate, Most Merciful. He is Allah—there is no god except Him: the King, the Most Holy, the All-Perfect, the Source of Serenity, the Watcher ˹of all˺, the Almighty, the Supreme in Might, the Majestic. Glorified is Allah far above what they associate with Him ˹in worship˺! He is Allah: the Creator, the Inventor, the Shaper. He ˹alone˺ has the Most Beautiful Names. Whatever is in the heavens and the earth ˹constantly˺ glorifies Him. And He is the Almighty, All-Wise."" Qur'an (59:22-24)
giveexamples 5y ago
I agree that there might be a god, but why would such a god that can transcends time and logic.. care about humans? Humans are just a type of animal, an advanced organism, in biological terms we are not too different from bacteria, trees and sheep. That there is a first element seems natural, however why should this first element to care about the 100010847238384392938474934th element?
- nxmnxm99 5y ago
  I’ve never understood this argument. What else would god “care” about, if not the only truly sentient creature that we know of? Trillions of light years of pointless rock with a few Apes in the middle who can contemplate God. Seems pretty damn special fo me.
  - giveexamples 5y ago
    Look at your kitchen sink. On that metal lives a billion bacteria cells. Maybe some of them are even sentient. Do you even care to find out? Not really - its far beneath you. Humans are infinitely inferior to a god. We are no different to a moving rock.
    - omarfarooq 5y ago
      You're assuming God's values though.
    - mpfundstein 5y ago
      a sentient bacteria? How would that work? Does the bacteria have a huge brain so that sentience can emerge from it?
      - gremlinsinc 5y ago
        The entire universe we know could be but a single neuron firing in a huge brain of something much much bigger... and they don't even realize we exist...so size is very... relative/immaterial to sentience...we could be the sentient bacteria.
beebmam 5y ago
What if there isn't? Isn't just the belief in a God going to affect the way you think and act? We know for a fact that particles can come into existence spontaneously from a vacuum; it is happening literally all the time.
- nxmnxm99 5y ago
  Where does the vacuum come from? What causes a particle to emerge from a vacuum?
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    The question you're asking about where the vacuum came from is the good one, we can answer the second by reference to the laws governing the vacuum.
- GreenWatermelon 5y ago
  There is truly no physical evidence pointing to the existence of God, otherwise it won't be a matter of belief. I also don't see any evidence that contradicts the existence of God. For me, the existence of God makes more sense in my philosophical model than his non-existance.
  - kmmlng 5y ago
    It seems like a statement like this cannot be made without first giving a definition of God. Clearly, people have different ideas of what God is. So either you are saying there is no evidence for one particular definition of God, but you are not giving us the definition or you are saying there is no evidence for any of the different definitions of God that might exist. The latter is a difficult argument to make in my estimation, because any one person is probably ignorant about a sizeable portion of definitions.
    - anthk 5y ago
      >So either you are saying there is no evidence for one particular definition of God, but you are not giving us the definition or you are saying there is no evidence for any of the different definitions of God that might exist Russel's teapot.
hn_throwaway_46 5y ago
In set theory maybe, but in category theory the universe can create itself.
tshaddox 5y ago
The problem you describe works in both directions though. If God is introduced to explain, say, the existence of the Universe, and you’re not allowed to ask what created God or why God exists, then why not just say you’re not allowed to ask what created the Universe or why the Universe exists?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
lordnacho 5y ago
But logic doesn't need to be created. The problem here is the idea of existence. There doesn't actually need to be a universe for the laws of logic still to be what they are. It's like how algorithms have the complexity they have regardless of whether computers exist, or whether they're made with silicon or buckets of water.
jayd16 5y ago
Without time how can you even conceptualize causation or determine what created what?
Nursie 5y ago
> I don't find it absurd to think that there is The God (Allah) ... I do, I see no reason to think such a being exists, absent extraordinary evidence, and inventing one seems absurd to me. Why must god be the first element? Why must there even be a first element? People don't try to disprove god by askingwhat created god, they are trying to invalidate a particular argument that is used by those who do believe - that the universe must have been created by some original force because it is so huge/amazing/complex, and we'll call that force god. But there is no reason it must have been, and if we imagine there is such a thing, there is no particular reason to stop there other than that semantically you have decided to call it the first. Because if the universe was created by a huge/amazing/complex god, then by the rules of your own argument we ought to look for a deeper cause. So yeah ... it's not a 'disproof' of god, so much as pointing out that that specific argument relies on some dodgy assumptions and is not any sort of proof of god, nor justifies belief in one in any way.
omegalulw 5y ago
> In math there is the concept of having a first element of a series and no one questions what was the element before the first element because if you can find an element before the first element then by definition that element you thought was first is not the first. Bad example. What's the first real number after zero?
mpfundstein 5y ago
where is time created IN? and where is logic created IN? and how can logic even be created? Is the pysical world that Allay somehow transencds contained in something or not? If not, where can Allah transcend to? Is your Allah living completely alone in eternal loneliness or are there other beings that they can converse with? I don't know. Just because you do some word trickery and somehow relate it to maths, the essential questions are still not being answered at all... thus, the evidence is still overwhelmingly in favour of no Allah, no god, no jehova, etc
- GreenWatermelon 5y ago
  Loneliness isn't something that can be attributed to God. Loneliness stems from the lack and desire for contact with others, but God is complete. He doesn't lack and doesn't need. God isn't constrained by space nor time because he created both. As for your first two questions, I can't comprehend them enough to think about them.
  - mpfundstein 5y ago
    you realize that your first to sentences sound like stuff some weird sect leader would preach, right? it doesnt make any sense. also, why does god have a gender? why do you assume they are male?
    - GreenWatermelon 5y ago
      Because I'm used to referring to God with male pronouns. Someone could refer to him with female pronouns, doesn't matter as the human gender construct doesn't apply to God. I would like to hear your opinion about just why you think that first doesn't make any sense. To me, it's logical you wouldn't ascribe hunger, thirst, lust loneliness, etc... To God. Also, that second part of your comment makes ot sound like you aren't arguing in good faith.
xorfish 5y ago
But God isn't a necessary assumption for the universe to exist.

flyingchipmann 5y ago

I agree the logic. To me conceptually god and the creator in cthulhu maybe the same

1e-9 5y ago

> In math there is the concept of having a first element... There is also the mathematical concept of not having a first element of a sequence, where each element has an infinite number of elements indexed before it. You seem to be arguing that the existence of a mathematical concept implies that the universe must follow it. In this case, you have one concept that implies a first element and another that implies no first element. They can’t both be true.

nxmnxm99 5y ago
No, he’s implying that an infinite series doesn’t have to be infinite in both directions to be infinite.
- 1e-9 5y ago
  >...doesn’t have to be... That argues that there might be a first. To be clear, I’m not saying there isn’t a first. I’m just saying this particular argument doesn’t support the assertion.

diskzero 5y ago

I was raised in the evangelical Christian tradition and have since had my views broken down and rebuilt numerous times. I am still seeking. I am ignorant about Islam, other than the way it is represented in popular media and from some basic readings. Your descriptions of God are interesting. Are these concepts that come from reading the Koran?

tdrdt 5y ago
Those concepts can also be found in the Christian bible. Maybe the biblical series by Jordan Peterson (@YT) are something for you.
talhah 5y ago
> Your descriptions of God are interesting. Are these concepts that come from reading the Koran? These descriptions are in fact sourced from the Qur'an. Allah gives us his description throughout the Qur'an. He has 99 names/attributes which you can look up. Below are example verses where he gives us part of the 99 names. It's a recurring theme in the Qur'an where He emphasizes His attributes. If you would like to read a Qur'an I would recommend "The Clear Quran, a thematic translation". ""He is Allah—there is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him: Knower of the seen and unseen. He is the Most Compassionate, Most Merciful. He is Allah—there is no god except Him: the King, the Most Holy, the All-Perfect, the Source of Serenity, the Watcher ˹of all˺, the Almighty, the Supreme in Might, the Majestic. Glorified is Allah far above what they associate with Him ˹in worship˺! He is Allah: the Creator, the Inventor, the Shaper. He ˹alone˺ has the Most Beautiful Names. Whatever is in the heavens and the earth ˹constantly˺ glorifies Him. And He is the Almighty, All-Wise."" Qur'an (59:22-24)

giveexamples 5y ago

I agree that there might be a god, but why would such a god that can transcends time and logic.. care about humans? Humans are just a type of animal, an advanced organism, in biological terms we are not too different from bacteria, trees and sheep. That there is a first element seems natural, however why should this first element to care about the 100010847238384392938474934th element?

nxmnxm99 5y ago
I’ve never understood this argument. What else would god “care” about, if not the only truly sentient creature that we know of? Trillions of light years of pointless rock with a few Apes in the middle who can contemplate God. Seems pretty damn special fo me.
- giveexamples 5y ago
  Look at your kitchen sink. On that metal lives a billion bacteria cells. Maybe some of them are even sentient. Do you even care to find out? Not really - its far beneath you. Humans are infinitely inferior to a god. We are no different to a moving rock.
  - omarfarooq 5y ago
    You're assuming God's values though.
  - mpfundstein 5y ago
    a sentient bacteria? How would that work? Does the bacteria have a huge brain so that sentience can emerge from it?
    - gremlinsinc 5y ago
      The entire universe we know could be but a single neuron firing in a huge brain of something much much bigger... and they don't even realize we exist...so size is very... relative/immaterial to sentience...we could be the sentient bacteria.

beebmam 5y ago

What if there isn't? Isn't just the belief in a God going to affect the way you think and act? We know for a fact that particles can come into existence spontaneously from a vacuum; it is happening literally all the time.

nxmnxm99 5y ago
Where does the vacuum come from? What causes a particle to emerge from a vacuum?
- whatshisface 5y ago
  The question you're asking about where the vacuum came from is the good one, we can answer the second by reference to the laws governing the vacuum.
GreenWatermelon 5y ago
There is truly no physical evidence pointing to the existence of God, otherwise it won't be a matter of belief. I also don't see any evidence that contradicts the existence of God. For me, the existence of God makes more sense in my philosophical model than his non-existance.
- kmmlng 5y ago
  It seems like a statement like this cannot be made without first giving a definition of God. Clearly, people have different ideas of what God is. So either you are saying there is no evidence for one particular definition of God, but you are not giving us the definition or you are saying there is no evidence for any of the different definitions of God that might exist. The latter is a difficult argument to make in my estimation, because any one person is probably ignorant about a sizeable portion of definitions.
  - anthk 5y ago
    >So either you are saying there is no evidence for one particular definition of God, but you are not giving us the definition or you are saying there is no evidence for any of the different definitions of God that might exist Russel's teapot.

hn_throwaway_46 5y ago

In set theory maybe, but in category theory the universe can create itself.

tshaddox 5y ago

The problem you describe works in both directions though. If God is introduced to explain, say, the existence of the Universe, and you’re not allowed to ask what created God or why God exists, then why not just say you’re not allowed to ask what created the Universe or why the Universe exists?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

lordnacho 5y ago

But logic doesn't need to be created. The problem here is the idea of existence. There doesn't actually need to be a universe for the laws of logic still to be what they are. It's like how algorithms have the complexity they have regardless of whether computers exist, or whether they're made with silicon or buckets of water.

jayd16 5y ago

Without time how can you even conceptualize causation or determine what created what?

Nursie 5y ago

> I don't find it absurd to think that there is The God (Allah) ... I do, I see no reason to think such a being exists, absent extraordinary evidence, and inventing one seems absurd to me. Why must god be the first element? Why must there even be a first element? People don't try to disprove god by askingwhat created god, they are trying to invalidate a particular argument that is used by those who do believe - that the universe must have been created by some original force because it is so huge/amazing/complex, and we'll call that force god. But there is no reason it must have been, and if we imagine there is such a thing, there is no particular reason to stop there other than that semantically you have decided to call it the first. Because if the universe was created by a huge/amazing/complex god, then by the rules of your own argument we ought to look for a deeper cause. So yeah ... it's not a 'disproof' of god, so much as pointing out that that specific argument relies on some dodgy assumptions and is not any sort of proof of god, nor justifies belief in one in any way.

omegalulw 5y ago

> In math there is the concept of having a first element of a series and no one questions what was the element before the first element because if you can find an element before the first element then by definition that element you thought was first is not the first. Bad example. What's the first real number after zero?

mpfundstein 5y ago

where is time created IN? and where is logic created IN? and how can logic even be created? Is the pysical world that Allay somehow transencds contained in something or not? If not, where can Allah transcend to? Is your Allah living completely alone in eternal loneliness or are there other beings that they can converse with? I don't know. Just because you do some word trickery and somehow relate it to maths, the essential questions are still not being answered at all... thus, the evidence is still overwhelmingly in favour of no Allah, no god, no jehova, etc

GreenWatermelon 5y ago
Loneliness isn't something that can be attributed to God. Loneliness stems from the lack and desire for contact with others, but God is complete. He doesn't lack and doesn't need. God isn't constrained by space nor time because he created both. As for your first two questions, I can't comprehend them enough to think about them.
- mpfundstein 5y ago
  you realize that your first to sentences sound like stuff some weird sect leader would preach, right? it doesnt make any sense. also, why does god have a gender? why do you assume they are male?
  - GreenWatermelon 5y ago
    Because I'm used to referring to God with male pronouns. Someone could refer to him with female pronouns, doesn't matter as the human gender construct doesn't apply to God. I would like to hear your opinion about just why you think that first doesn't make any sense. To me, it's logical you wouldn't ascribe hunger, thirst, lust loneliness, etc... To God. Also, that second part of your comment makes ot sound like you aren't arguing in good faith.

xorfish 5y ago

But God isn't a necessary assumption for the universe to exist.