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It was data. The "I must be doing something wrong" was tongue in cheek. The specific data point was that I am not seeing any salaries anywhere near that. And Sa

by throwaway2016a 5y ago

It was data. The "I must be doing something wrong" was tongue in cheek. The specific data point was that I am not seeing any salaries anywhere near that. And Salary.com actually backs me up. Just the fact "grind Leet Code" is a recommendation to someone who's most recent job title was CTO and has written two books may be a sign these interviews are broken. But point taken, I'm sure if I studied specifically for interviews I could get those jobs. But the fact remains, a vast majority of people don't work for FAANG and even the "person unwilling to work for FAANG" example is higher salary than I have ever seen. My point was actually that the article and ones like this seem well research but don't match the reality. For example, I recently interviewed at a fortune 100 company for a Director position and it was what this article says is "non-FAANG staff engineer" salary.

wiseowise 5y ago
> Just the fact "grind Leet Code" is a recommendation to someone who's most recent job title was CTO and has written two books may be a sign these interviews are broken. Well, I'm sorry you have to go through the same ropes that we peasants do, you highness.
- mmmmmbop 5y ago
  Exactly. If I was hiring for a tech position and had to choose between an engineer with a few years of experience and strong analytical skills proven through coding & system design interviews, and a person who prides themselves on 10 years as a CTO at a company I've never heard of and two book authorships, I'd strongly lean towards the former.
  - CrimpCity 5y ago
    I mean “tech position” is extremely vague here if you’re going to make them code because what you actually need is an engineer then yeah I would prefer the leetcoder too but if you’re going to build a team and put processes in place then I’d go for the CTO. I think it all depends on the position specifics. Generally speaking tho the CTO interview is VERY different than a typical engineer or senior engineer.
ska 5y ago
> My point was actually that the article and ones like this seem well research but don't match the reality Isn't it more that they match the reality, but the reality only for a relatively small section of a bimodal (or more) distribution?
- throwaway2016a 5y ago
  I have no data to back that up but I think you may be right. We always show salary as a normal distribution but maybe it is bimodal.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > We always show salary as a normal distribution but maybe it is bimodal. Who are we? Which salaries? Starting salaries for lawyers are one of the most famous examples of a bimodal distribution you can find. Salaries across the country generally are less bimodal than that. But salaries shouldn't be modeled as a normal distribution in any event. They skew high very easily, and they can never skew low.
    - throwaway2016a 5y ago
      Sites like Salary.com mostly.
  - loeg 5y ago
    https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/ https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/ discusses this somewhat (2015 numbers).
- the_only_law 5y ago
  This seems to be my experience with these sort of topics.
da39a3ee 5y ago
I'm a bit confused about what you're saying. levels.fyi is accurate and there are plenty of remote jobs available. So the 300k+ salaries are certainly available from Boston. If you're not willing to prove that you can pass system design, coding, and leadership interviews then that's a different matter. FWIW I recently interviewed for staff at a bay area big tech company and there was no leetcode-style coding interview: system design, leadership, presenting previous work, and a simple non-algorithmic coding discussion.
- throwaway2016a 5y ago
  The comment I'm replying to specifically mentions Leet Code (I am assuming that is what LC stood for) which is the only reason I brought it up. Your point is exactly my point, leet code is not relevant to the type of position I'd be looking for. So assuming Levels.fyi is accurate (their numbers are $20k more than salary.com which is more accurate in my opinion): my point was that I am average, right in the middle. But this article is telling me (and by extension, since I am at the mean, 50% of software engineers) are extremely underpaid. And maybe on a nation wide scale that includes non-Boston metros, I am. But for Boston... I'm not over or under. I'm right in the middle. Basically based on my research I think this article is for a very niche group at the top 25% of pay ranges and is not accurate or relevant to 75%+ of software developers (numbers are ballpark).
  - throwdecro 5y ago
    > leet code is not relevant to the type of position I'd be looking for Leetcode is relevant to getting the money though. It may be the case that inexperienced new hires with Leetcode proficiency make significantly more money than CTOs in the positions you're considering.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    > Your point is exactly my point, leet code is not relevant to the type of position I'd be looking for. But the jobs you'd get with leetcode would pay twice your current expected liquid compensation at least (assuming 0 stock growth) for your experience level. If you don't want those then fine, but then you can't complain about threads like this either. Google has jobs in Boston, I bet there are many other tech companies paying similar as well. Pay at these varies by location, but not more than around 10% within USA, so it isn't like it is your locations fault, if you worked at these companies you'd be earning very close to the same you'd earn in silicon valley.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tubby12345 5y ago
>Just the fact "grind Leet Code" is a recommendation to someone who's most recent job title was CTO and has written two books may be a sign these interviews are broken. This comment and those further down (particularly doubting the data) suggest that you're experiencing strong cognitive dissonance. There are, I'm sure, hundreds of engineers on HN that can testify to exactly how much FAANG pays and in which metro and how little experience they had (not including LC) before they started. The claim that hiring is broken has been constantly repeated since ~2010 and yet all of these companies somehow, despite hiring all of the wrong non-CTO people, are still alive and are in fact thriving. Like I said: given how consistently these mantras are chanted I'm just curious what you're expecting to have changed since the last time a post like this was made (you did say "every time I see..." so you've certainly seen many). It's a little like that episode of parks and rec with the reasonabilists where they keep predicting and amending the date of the end of the world. Don't take this the wrong way, but, having helped several people through the interview loop at FAANG, my experience is that it is frequently the ones that see themselves as above grinding LC, that have the hardest time making it all the way through. And I don't mean wrt wrestling with how tricky some LC problems are (most everyone struggles with eg DP) but with marshalling the discipline and patience to actually do enough to do well during the interview. It has been said before but my personal experience reflects this: it is of absolutely no surprise to absolutely anyone that those that can grind LC fare much better once on the inside and facing the sheer abyss of complexity of FAANG systems.
- throwaway2016a 5y ago
  Read what I said again. My point was not that algorithms are irrelevant but they are table stakes. I have known all the algorithms on Leet Code for years. My comment was not that I don't need to know algorithms it was that at a senior level the questions should be far more advanced than what leet code has. I'm a little amazed that so many people in these comments assume I don't know algorithms.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    If you are great at algorithms, have 20 years of experience with a great track record and live near a great tech university so plenty of tech companies, then you are doing something really wrong if you just earn $175k a year. Or you intentionally choose to have a low salary and prioritize other things, but if you did that then you'd know about it instead of asking this question.
hintymad 5y ago
Fortune 100 companies don't necessarily pay well for software engineers. The bigger a company is, the more that resources concentrate to the top of the company. Besides, a non-tech company will consider their tech departments cost center, which means the pay will not be good. Tech companies pay much better, both in cash and in equity. Note a company does not have to be technical in your eyes, but needs to be technical in its management's perspective.
creato 5y ago
The leet code thing is overstated. I’ve rarely seen “hard” questions asked and when they are asked, often the maximally efficient solution is not required to do well in the interview.

wiseowise 5y ago

> Just the fact "grind Leet Code" is a recommendation to someone who's most recent job title was CTO and has written two books may be a sign these interviews are broken. Well, I'm sorry you have to go through the same ropes that we peasants do, you highness.

mmmmmbop 5y ago
Exactly. If I was hiring for a tech position and had to choose between an engineer with a few years of experience and strong analytical skills proven through coding & system design interviews, and a person who prides themselves on 10 years as a CTO at a company I've never heard of and two book authorships, I'd strongly lean towards the former.
- CrimpCity 5y ago
  I mean “tech position” is extremely vague here if you’re going to make them code because what you actually need is an engineer then yeah I would prefer the leetcoder too but if you’re going to build a team and put processes in place then I’d go for the CTO. I think it all depends on the position specifics. Generally speaking tho the CTO interview is VERY different than a typical engineer or senior engineer.

ska 5y ago

> My point was actually that the article and ones like this seem well research but don't match the reality Isn't it more that they match the reality, but the reality only for a relatively small section of a bimodal (or more) distribution?

throwaway2016a 5y ago
I have no data to back that up but I think you may be right. We always show salary as a normal distribution but maybe it is bimodal.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > We always show salary as a normal distribution but maybe it is bimodal. Who are we? Which salaries? Starting salaries for lawyers are one of the most famous examples of a bimodal distribution you can find. Salaries across the country generally are less bimodal than that. But salaries shouldn't be modeled as a normal distribution in any event. They skew high very easily, and they can never skew low.
  - throwaway2016a 5y ago
    Sites like Salary.com mostly.
- loeg 5y ago
  https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/ https://danluu.com/bimodal-compensation/ discusses this somewhat (2015 numbers).
the_only_law 5y ago
This seems to be my experience with these sort of topics.

da39a3ee 5y ago

I'm a bit confused about what you're saying. levels.fyi is accurate and there are plenty of remote jobs available. So the 300k+ salaries are certainly available from Boston. If you're not willing to prove that you can pass system design, coding, and leadership interviews then that's a different matter. FWIW I recently interviewed for staff at a bay area big tech company and there was no leetcode-style coding interview: system design, leadership, presenting previous work, and a simple non-algorithmic coding discussion.

throwaway2016a 5y ago
The comment I'm replying to specifically mentions Leet Code (I am assuming that is what LC stood for) which is the only reason I brought it up. Your point is exactly my point, leet code is not relevant to the type of position I'd be looking for. So assuming Levels.fyi is accurate (their numbers are $20k more than salary.com which is more accurate in my opinion): my point was that I am average, right in the middle. But this article is telling me (and by extension, since I am at the mean, 50% of software engineers) are extremely underpaid. And maybe on a nation wide scale that includes non-Boston metros, I am. But for Boston... I'm not over or under. I'm right in the middle. Basically based on my research I think this article is for a very niche group at the top 25% of pay ranges and is not accurate or relevant to 75%+ of software developers (numbers are ballpark).
- throwdecro 5y ago
  > leet code is not relevant to the type of position I'd be looking for Leetcode is relevant to getting the money though. It may be the case that inexperienced new hires with Leetcode proficiency make significantly more money than CTOs in the positions you're considering.
- Jensson 5y ago
  > Your point is exactly my point, leet code is not relevant to the type of position I'd be looking for. But the jobs you'd get with leetcode would pay twice your current expected liquid compensation at least (assuming 0 stock growth) for your experience level. If you don't want those then fine, but then you can't complain about threads like this either. Google has jobs in Boston, I bet there are many other tech companies paying similar as well. Pay at these varies by location, but not more than around 10% within USA, so it isn't like it is your locations fault, if you worked at these companies you'd be earning very close to the same you'd earn in silicon valley.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tubby12345 5y ago

>Just the fact "grind Leet Code" is a recommendation to someone who's most recent job title was CTO and has written two books may be a sign these interviews are broken. This comment and those further down (particularly doubting the data) suggest that you're experiencing strong cognitive dissonance. There are, I'm sure, hundreds of engineers on HN that can testify to exactly how much FAANG pays and in which metro and how little experience they had (not including LC) before they started. The claim that hiring is broken has been constantly repeated since ~2010 and yet all of these companies somehow, despite hiring all of the wrong non-CTO people, are still alive and are in fact thriving. Like I said: given how consistently these mantras are chanted I'm just curious what you're expecting to have changed since the last time a post like this was made (you did say "every time I see..." so you've certainly seen many). It's a little like that episode of parks and rec with the reasonabilists where they keep predicting and amending the date of the end of the world. Don't take this the wrong way, but, having helped several people through the interview loop at FAANG, my experience is that it is frequently the ones that see themselves as above grinding LC, that have the hardest time making it all the way through. And I don't mean wrt wrestling with how tricky some LC problems are (most everyone struggles with eg DP) but with marshalling the discipline and patience to actually do enough to do well during the interview. It has been said before but my personal experience reflects this: it is of absolutely no surprise to absolutely anyone that those that can grind LC fare much better once on the inside and facing the sheer abyss of complexity of FAANG systems.

throwaway2016a 5y ago
Read what I said again. My point was not that algorithms are irrelevant but they are table stakes. I have known all the algorithms on Leet Code for years. My comment was not that I don't need to know algorithms it was that at a senior level the questions should be far more advanced than what leet code has. I'm a little amazed that so many people in these comments assume I don't know algorithms.
- Jensson 5y ago
  If you are great at algorithms, have 20 years of experience with a great track record and live near a great tech university so plenty of tech companies, then you are doing something really wrong if you just earn $175k a year. Or you intentionally choose to have a low salary and prioritize other things, but if you did that then you'd know about it instead of asking this question.

hintymad 5y ago

Fortune 100 companies don't necessarily pay well for software engineers. The bigger a company is, the more that resources concentrate to the top of the company. Besides, a non-tech company will consider their tech departments cost center, which means the pay will not be good. Tech companies pay much better, both in cash and in equity. Note a company does not have to be technical in your eyes, but needs to be technical in its management's perspective.

creato 5y ago

The leet code thing is overstated. I’ve rarely seen “hard” questions asked and when they are asked, often the maximally efficient solution is not required to do well in the interview.