4 ms·

My point is: it seems to me that it is possible that labor unions in Europe are less effective at bargaining than individuals in the US, but I'd like to see res

My point is: it seems to me that it is possible that labor unions in Europe are less effective at bargaining than individuals in the US, but I'd like to see research. I didn't intend to imply the US software industry is unionized; the US barely has any union jobs in 2021.

jsjohnst 5y ago
> the US barely has any union jobs in 2021 In software, sure, but to say there barely are any union jobs in the US currently is wildly inaccurate.
- adventured 5y ago
  For reference (for anyone curious) presently ~10% of US jobs are unionized. 40 years ago it was around to ~20%. https://usafacts.org/articles/labor-union-membership/ https://usafacts.org/articles/labor-union-membership/
- karaterobot 5y ago
  Since I went to the trouble to look it up: There are estimated to be 4.4 million software developers employed in the U.S.[1] and about 150 million total jobs[2], so about 3% of employed persons in the U.S. are software developers. About 11% of U.S. workers are union members[3], so there are more than 3 times as many union members as professional developers in the U.S. [1] https://dqydj.com/number-of-developers-in-america-and-per-state/ https://dqydj.com/number-of-developers-in-america-and-per-st... [2] https://www.deptofnumbers.com/employment/us/ https://www.deptofnumbers.com/employment/us/ [3] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm
  - repsilat 5y ago
    Mostly public sector (around 1/3 unionized). Private is around 6%[1]. And after the public sector it's transport, utilities, telecoms, construction, manufacturing. Basically a laundry list of underperformance in the US -- important sectors (govt especially) choked to death by rent-seeking and complacency. 1: https://www.thebalancecareers.com/best-union-jobs-in-america-4160033 https://www.thebalancecareers.com/best-union-jobs-in-america...
nextos 5y ago
It's also a cultural thing. In EU, traditionally, business people are paid much more than technical personnel. Prominent engineers are valued, but only to some extent. For example, mechanical engineer salaries in top German corporations are not that high, and they are bringing in a lot of value. Let's not forget most FAANG founders were computer scientists, plus there's a shortage top talent. Electrical engineer salaries at Intel, AMD or ARM are, as far as I know, nothing to call home about. With that said, we are starting to see some IT positions with really nice compensations. Mostly in CH, NL, DK and UK as far as I can tell.
beberlei 5y ago
there are, to my knowledge, no labor unions for software developers in Europe. Some people have union contracts through industries that are fully unionized and happen to need software developers, but that doesn't translate to really high salaries that you see in IT.

jsjohnst 5y ago

> the US barely has any union jobs in 2021 In software, sure, but to say there barely are any union jobs in the US currently is wildly inaccurate.

adventured 5y ago
For reference (for anyone curious) presently ~10% of US jobs are unionized. 40 years ago it was around to ~20%. https://usafacts.org/articles/labor-union-membership/ https://usafacts.org/articles/labor-union-membership/
karaterobot 5y ago
Since I went to the trouble to look it up: There are estimated to be 4.4 million software developers employed in the U.S.[1] and about 150 million total jobs[2], so about 3% of employed persons in the U.S. are software developers. About 11% of U.S. workers are union members[3], so there are more than 3 times as many union members as professional developers in the U.S. [1] https://dqydj.com/number-of-developers-in-america-and-per-state/ https://dqydj.com/number-of-developers-in-america-and-per-st... [2] https://www.deptofnumbers.com/employment/us/ https://www.deptofnumbers.com/employment/us/ [3] https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm https://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm
- repsilat 5y ago
  Mostly public sector (around 1/3 unionized). Private is around 6%[1]. And after the public sector it's transport, utilities, telecoms, construction, manufacturing. Basically a laundry list of underperformance in the US -- important sectors (govt especially) choked to death by rent-seeking and complacency. 1: https://www.thebalancecareers.com/best-union-jobs-in-america-4160033 https://www.thebalancecareers.com/best-union-jobs-in-america...

nextos 5y ago

It's also a cultural thing. In EU, traditionally, business people are paid much more than technical personnel. Prominent engineers are valued, but only to some extent. For example, mechanical engineer salaries in top German corporations are not that high, and they are bringing in a lot of value. Let's not forget most FAANG founders were computer scientists, plus there's a shortage top talent. Electrical engineer salaries at Intel, AMD or ARM are, as far as I know, nothing to call home about. With that said, we are starting to see some IT positions with really nice compensations. Mostly in CH, NL, DK and UK as far as I can tell.

beberlei 5y ago

there are, to my knowledge, no labor unions for software developers in Europe. Some people have union contracts through industries that are fully unionized and happen to need software developers, but that doesn't translate to really high salaries that you see in IT.