5 ms·

What this doesn't take into account is the degree to which introducing such requirements can more easily be exploited in future to introduce barriers to voting.

What this doesn't take into account is the degree to which introducing such requirements can more easily be exploited in future to introduce barriers to voting. We've already seen how far some people are willing to go to undermine the integrity of elections. This means the real question is, to what extent does the current system contribute to integrity issues? So far, there doesn't seem to be much evidence that it does. So, what is the rationale for introducing additional ID requirements, beyond what already exists via voter registration, matching at the polls, etc.?

chestertn 5y ago
Most european countries require some sort of government ID before voting. I don't see what the big deal is.
- triceratops 5y ago
  They also provide ID for free. A lot of these countries have some form of government-sponsored health care, for which people already have ID by default.
  - xdennis 5y ago
    Not all European states provide free IDs, and some US states which require IDs provide them for free.
    - triceratops 5y ago
      Can you give me examples of European countries where there are no forms of ID that are free and accepted at the polls?
      - HotHotLava 5y ago
        In Germany the ID card costs 37 EUR and is valid for 10 years, reduced to 22.80 EUR and 6 years of validity if you're under 24. A passport is even more expensive. No other forms of identification are accepted, but it's also not really necessary since you're required to get an ID card anyways.
        triceratops 5y ago
        > you're required to get an ID card anyways The US doesn't require citizens to have ID to exist. That's part of "freedom" in America (I mean this genuinely). So it is an additional step if you want to vote. Cynical state governments have tried to shape who can vote for them by making IDs mandatory and strategically closing ID offices in certain areas, reducing office hours (among other barriers). It's not a hypothetical situation.
  - chestertn 5y ago
    In Spain, the national ID (DNI) costs 12 euros. They wave the cost under certain conditions.
    - triceratops 5y ago
      Is DNI the only acceptable form of ID for voting? Are there no free IDs that are also accepted? How long does it take to get a DNI? How convenient is it? Voter ID laws in the US are weaponized to reduce turnout. Make ID compulsory, then make getting ID really cumbersome (reduce office hours, increase wait times, increase costs).
      - chestertn 5y ago
        DNI, passport or drivers license. All of these IDs cost money. DNI is compulsory after 16.
        triceratops 5y ago
        > DNI is compulsory after 16. The US doesn't require citizens to have an ID just to exist. That's part of the "freedom" Americans like to talk about. It sounds like every citizen in Spain already has a DNI so they should be able to vote without additional hassle. It's the additional hassle to vote that opponents of voter ID laws cite as the crux of the issue. If you pair mandatory voter ID laws with strategic ID office closures (among other barriers), you can influence who can vote. This has already happened; it isn't hypothetical.
  - wolfhumble 5y ago
    Not American, but from what I understand you would need an ID for e.g. foods stamps and unemployment benefits (searched via Google). I think the same is true when you are hired for a new job as well(?). These are just examples. Can you really live a normal life in the US without a passport, driver's license or State ID? I have read many times that requiring an ID card to vote in the US is seen by many as undemocratic as certain demographics are hindered from voting. To me this is absurd. To create trust that elections are held without fraud, IDs are an essential building block.
    - triceratops 5y ago
      > requiring an ID card to vote in the US Requiring an ID card without taking steps to ensure those IDs are available easily and for cheap. There are almost no "election security by voter ID" bills that provide the latter. On the other hand, making voter ID mandatory has been accompanied by closure of offices or reduction of hours, increasing wait times and so on. It's clearly a dirty trick.
      - wolfhumble 5y ago
        IDs are essential. It works in other countries. Fix it.
    - tshaddox 5y ago
      The ACLU cites a 2006 study which says that 25% of African-American eligible voters lack government-issued photo ID, and 8% of white eligible voters. Those are pretty huge numbers, not to mention the conspicuous ethnic disparity.
  - odiroot 5y ago
    Where exactly? I had to pay for all my government IDs.
- SeanLuke 5y ago
  Unlike many countries, US doesn't have a national required ID card, so voter ID schemes must resort to other kinds of identification. Republican-controlled states have often restricted forms of identification to those sorts that many democrats may not have in an attempt to discourage them from voting.
twofornone 5y ago
>So far, there doesn't seem to be much evidence that it does. So, what is the rationale for introducing additional ID requirements, beyond what already exists via voter registration, matching at the polls, etc.? Right, as any good security engineer will tell you, the best time to fix a hole is after its already been exploited.
- antonvs 5y ago
  I've done security engineering work at both large and small companies, as well as for the US Navy. What's the threat model you're concerned about here?
xdennis 5y ago
Most countries have id requirements, and it's not viewed as a slippery slope towards voter suppression. As an outsider, I find it really weird how instead of agreeing to id requirements, Sunday-voting, and automatic registration like most countries, Americans prefer to fight the other side's requirements with silly arguments like "We can't vote on a Sunday, that would offend The Lord!", and "We can't use ids to vote because black people don't know how to get them."
- erehweb 5y ago
  Most other countries did not have legal and quasi-legal voter suppression of minorities entrenched in their system for most of their history.
- namdnay 5y ago
  Most countries have IDs though… you can’t do anything in most European countries without your ID. If we had to have a specific document to vote that we never need for anything else, we would be having the same arguments as you guys
  - BitwiseFool 5y ago
    >"You can’t do anything in most European countries without your ID." That's the case in America, too.
    - antonvs 5y ago
      The difference is that in the US there's no standard ID that's suitable for voting, that everyone has. Not everyone has a driver's license. It's possible to get a non-driver ID from the motor vehicle department in most states, but not everyone without a driver's license has this either. There's also no federal ID, other than a passport, which a large number (majority?) of people don't have. This is a big part of the reason why separating voter registration from voting makes sense in the US. Voter registration allows identity to be confirmed using a variety of documents, which would be less practical to check at polling time. The "solution" to this (assuming a solution is needed, which no-one seems to be able to justify well) is to have a federal ID or a federal ID standard (like Real ID), coupled with a requirement that every citizen has such an ID. It's amusing that conservatives are the ones pushing for this "papers please" approach. Apparently their fear of imaginary voter fraud by imaginary immigrants outweighs their fear of a new federal government-imposed requirement that impacts their precious "freedoms".

chestertn 5y ago

Most european countries require some sort of government ID before voting. I don't see what the big deal is.

triceratops 5y ago
They also provide ID for free. A lot of these countries have some form of government-sponsored health care, for which people already have ID by default.
- xdennis 5y ago
  Not all European states provide free IDs, and some US states which require IDs provide them for free.
  - triceratops 5y ago
    Can you give me examples of European countries where there are no forms of ID that are free and accepted at the polls?
    - HotHotLava 5y ago
      In Germany the ID card costs 37 EUR and is valid for 10 years, reduced to 22.80 EUR and 6 years of validity if you're under 24. A passport is even more expensive. No other forms of identification are accepted, but it's also not really necessary since you're required to get an ID card anyways.
      - triceratops 5y ago
        > you're required to get an ID card anyways The US doesn't require citizens to have ID to exist. That's part of "freedom" in America (I mean this genuinely). So it is an additional step if you want to vote. Cynical state governments have tried to shape who can vote for them by making IDs mandatory and strategically closing ID offices in certain areas, reducing office hours (among other barriers). It's not a hypothetical situation.
- chestertn 5y ago
  In Spain, the national ID (DNI) costs 12 euros. They wave the cost under certain conditions.
  - triceratops 5y ago
    Is DNI the only acceptable form of ID for voting? Are there no free IDs that are also accepted? How long does it take to get a DNI? How convenient is it? Voter ID laws in the US are weaponized to reduce turnout. Make ID compulsory, then make getting ID really cumbersome (reduce office hours, increase wait times, increase costs).
    - chestertn 5y ago
      DNI, passport or drivers license. All of these IDs cost money. DNI is compulsory after 16.
      - triceratops 5y ago
        > DNI is compulsory after 16. The US doesn't require citizens to have an ID just to exist. That's part of the "freedom" Americans like to talk about. It sounds like every citizen in Spain already has a DNI so they should be able to vote without additional hassle. It's the additional hassle to vote that opponents of voter ID laws cite as the crux of the issue. If you pair mandatory voter ID laws with strategic ID office closures (among other barriers), you can influence who can vote. This has already happened; it isn't hypothetical.
- wolfhumble 5y ago
  Not American, but from what I understand you would need an ID for e.g. foods stamps and unemployment benefits (searched via Google). I think the same is true when you are hired for a new job as well(?). These are just examples. Can you really live a normal life in the US without a passport, driver's license or State ID? I have read many times that requiring an ID card to vote in the US is seen by many as undemocratic as certain demographics are hindered from voting. To me this is absurd. To create trust that elections are held without fraud, IDs are an essential building block.
  - triceratops 5y ago
    > requiring an ID card to vote in the US Requiring an ID card without taking steps to ensure those IDs are available easily and for cheap. There are almost no "election security by voter ID" bills that provide the latter. On the other hand, making voter ID mandatory has been accompanied by closure of offices or reduction of hours, increasing wait times and so on. It's clearly a dirty trick.
    - wolfhumble 5y ago
      IDs are essential. It works in other countries. Fix it.
  - tshaddox 5y ago
    The ACLU cites a 2006 study which says that 25% of African-American eligible voters lack government-issued photo ID, and 8% of white eligible voters. Those are pretty huge numbers, not to mention the conspicuous ethnic disparity.
- odiroot 5y ago
  Where exactly? I had to pay for all my government IDs.
SeanLuke 5y ago
Unlike many countries, US doesn't have a national required ID card, so voter ID schemes must resort to other kinds of identification. Republican-controlled states have often restricted forms of identification to those sorts that many democrats may not have in an attempt to discourage them from voting.

twofornone 5y ago

>So far, there doesn't seem to be much evidence that it does. So, what is the rationale for introducing additional ID requirements, beyond what already exists via voter registration, matching at the polls, etc.? Right, as any good security engineer will tell you, the best time to fix a hole is after its already been exploited.

antonvs 5y ago
I've done security engineering work at both large and small companies, as well as for the US Navy. What's the threat model you're concerned about here?

xdennis 5y ago

Most countries have id requirements, and it's not viewed as a slippery slope towards voter suppression. As an outsider, I find it really weird how instead of agreeing to id requirements, Sunday-voting, and automatic registration like most countries, Americans prefer to fight the other side's requirements with silly arguments like "We can't vote on a Sunday, that would offend The Lord!", and "We can't use ids to vote because black people don't know how to get them."

erehweb 5y ago
Most other countries did not have legal and quasi-legal voter suppression of minorities entrenched in their system for most of their history.
namdnay 5y ago
Most countries have IDs though… you can’t do anything in most European countries without your ID. If we had to have a specific document to vote that we never need for anything else, we would be having the same arguments as you guys
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  >"You can’t do anything in most European countries without your ID." That's the case in America, too.
  - antonvs 5y ago
    The difference is that in the US there's no standard ID that's suitable for voting, that everyone has. Not everyone has a driver's license. It's possible to get a non-driver ID from the motor vehicle department in most states, but not everyone without a driver's license has this either. There's also no federal ID, other than a passport, which a large number (majority?) of people don't have. This is a big part of the reason why separating voter registration from voting makes sense in the US. Voter registration allows identity to be confirmed using a variety of documents, which would be less practical to check at polling time. The "solution" to this (assuming a solution is needed, which no-one seems to be able to justify well) is to have a federal ID or a federal ID standard (like Real ID), coupled with a requirement that every citizen has such an ID. It's amusing that conservatives are the ones pushing for this "papers please" approach. Apparently their fear of imaginary voter fraud by imaginary immigrants outweighs their fear of a new federal government-imposed requirement that impacts their precious "freedoms".