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Canonical has been doing some great work with Ubuntu. Though now I wonder if the desktop Linux is dead. With WSL rapidly improving with each release, how many d

by websap 5y ago

Canonical has been doing some great work with Ubuntu. Though now I wonder if the desktop Linux is dead. With WSL rapidly improving with each release, how many devs really want to deal with the configuration of a Linux system?

xet7 5y ago
Windows 10 has EOL End Of Life (EOL) on October 14, 2025. Windows 11 does run only on limited amount of hardware. Because of covid, availability of hardware is limited anyway. Old Mac and Windows computers do not run newest macOS and Windows anymore. So I have installed Linux Factory customers etc don't want to deal with Windows on factory floor anymore, so they are porting software to Gambas on Linux. Usage of desktop Linux is increasing all the time.
beepbooptheory 5y ago
I will sooner give up computers forever than be either locked into a linux VM on Windows, or locked into expensive hardware with the other one
- websap 5y ago
  When was the last time you used WSL? Also, what's your dev tool chain?
  - pxc 5y ago
    Not the OP but fwiw I feel the same. Last I used WSL was probably 3 or 4 months ago, so very recently but before I had a chance to try graphical WSL. But tbh that hardly matters to me because I don't use many GUI applications. The problem for me is that to use WSL, I still have to use Windows, which is odious to me for reasons that WSL can't ameliorate. Additionally every time you get set up on Windows you still have to deal with its deficiencies in getting to your desired WSL setup, namely deficient package management and terminal emulation solutions. (Windows Terminal is pretty good, and it's what I always go with for now.) WSL will never help Windows with being slow or huge (20+ GB for an install, even without any applications? what the absolute fuck) or rude or unpredictable or opaque. As for my toolchain: for people like me who use distros a bit off the beaten path, the fact that WSL is more or less incompatible with a real init system gets in the way, too. Nix support has also been spotty, coming and going and being blocked and unblocked at various times since WSL1. Idk, dude. I actually like Linux on the desktop, Windows does a ton of things I don't like, and setting up a Windows machine seriously sucks. I don't think WSL is or wants to be for me.
capableweb 5y ago
Obviously, if a developer sees it as "deal with the configuration" then no, go with macOS, Windows or any other zero-config operating systems. But many see that part as a feature, not something to "deal with", and for those Linux is rescue in a sea of the infantilization Apple and Microsoft engage with.
- xet7 5y ago
  Oh, I really wish macOS and Windows were more zero-config. On Linux, I can install many dev tools at once. It's easiest to dev on Linux. Harder on Windows. Hardest on macOS. Yes, I did spend many hours debugging macOS to show local website at work. macOS and Windows shows all kinds of extra confirmation questions if I try to run executeable I compiled.
- pxc 5y ago
  > macOS, Windows or any other zero-config operating systems ??? Windows and Mac are way more work to set up than Linux because they fundamentally lack systems for managing software comparable to a decent package manager. Everything is a manual, pointy-clicky nightmare, sometimes lightly papered over with hacky hodgepodges like Chocolatey or supplemented with third party tools that are a bit better on macOS but still have to fight against an indifferent base system that cyclically breaks them (Nix, Homebrew), but ultimately still a mess.
sagarm 5y ago
This comment made me laugh out loud. There's no way I'd prefer Windows + WSL to a proper Linux install. I can't stand my OS trying to advertise to me, Windows is a PITA to install/maintain, and I strongly prefer the Gnome UX to Windows (or Mac). With the Steam deck motivating developers to get their games running on Linux (mostly via Wine), with better performance, I see the opposite potential. Linux share on Steam has been steadily growing. To be fair Linux on laptops is still occasionally problematic from a battery life POV, but we're often comparing community support to vendor official support not just the operating systems. Increased motivation from vendors to support Linux should help round out hardware support.
est31 5y ago
I think the linux marketshare among devs is still increasing, even with WSL available. WSL is in fact one of Microsoft's attempts to lure back developers to their OS, or never make them switch. For some folks, like you, this might actually work. But they've lost me as a user since more than a decade and I doubt I'll come back out of my own volition. Even with WSL, Windows is full of bloat, slowness, and I am fully exposed to Microsoft's user-harming antipatterns.
- websap 5y ago
  Maybe, I'm a minority on HN, but I want my OS to be as transparent as possible while I do my work. Each time I login, I don't want to be greeted with Audio doesn't work, or your email client broke because Outlook Server changed something. My hunch is low code or no code users are also similar, if someone uses Python for some data wrangling tasks, they don't want to deal with a full fledged Linux installation. My developer tool chain generally involves writing backend services. I made a toy project using WSL and VSCode's remote extension and the experience was almost seamless. I was able to get Docker to work, installed GoLang, built my services, use the terminal to push code.
  - HKH2 5y ago
    Whenever I'm on Windows I get a stream of non-urgent notifications about updates etc. which is far from staying out of my way.
jimbob45 5y ago
I feel the opposite way. What does Windows have to justify the thousands of dollars necessary to put Windows on every machine in my organization outside of its deadeye security updates team?
bobince 5y ago
The reason I run desktop Linux isn't because it has a particular feature I want. It's to get away from all the Windows features I don't want — bloat, bundleware, ads, telemetry, forced AV, forced cloud features, forced reboots... So WSL doesn't help me, really.

by websap 5y ago

xet7 5y ago

Windows 10 has EOL End Of Life (EOL) on October 14, 2025. Windows 11 does run only on limited amount of hardware. Because of covid, availability of hardware is limited anyway. Old Mac and Windows computers do not run newest macOS and Windows anymore. So I have installed Linux Factory customers etc don't want to deal with Windows on factory floor anymore, so they are porting software to Gambas on Linux. Usage of desktop Linux is increasing all the time.

beepbooptheory 5y ago

I will sooner give up computers forever than be either locked into a linux VM on Windows, or locked into expensive hardware with the other one

websap 5y ago
When was the last time you used WSL? Also, what's your dev tool chain?
- pxc 5y ago
  Not the OP but fwiw I feel the same. Last I used WSL was probably 3 or 4 months ago, so very recently but before I had a chance to try graphical WSL. But tbh that hardly matters to me because I don't use many GUI applications. The problem for me is that to use WSL, I still have to use Windows, which is odious to me for reasons that WSL can't ameliorate. Additionally every time you get set up on Windows you still have to deal with its deficiencies in getting to your desired WSL setup, namely deficient package management and terminal emulation solutions. (Windows Terminal is pretty good, and it's what I always go with for now.) WSL will never help Windows with being slow or huge (20+ GB for an install, even without any applications? what the absolute fuck) or rude or unpredictable or opaque. As for my toolchain: for people like me who use distros a bit off the beaten path, the fact that WSL is more or less incompatible with a real init system gets in the way, too. Nix support has also been spotty, coming and going and being blocked and unblocked at various times since WSL1. Idk, dude. I actually like Linux on the desktop, Windows does a ton of things I don't like, and setting up a Windows machine seriously sucks. I don't think WSL is or wants to be for me.

capableweb 5y ago

Obviously, if a developer sees it as "deal with the configuration" then no, go with macOS, Windows or any other zero-config operating systems. But many see that part as a feature, not something to "deal with", and for those Linux is rescue in a sea of the infantilization Apple and Microsoft engage with.

xet7 5y ago
Oh, I really wish macOS and Windows were more zero-config. On Linux, I can install many dev tools at once. It's easiest to dev on Linux. Harder on Windows. Hardest on macOS. Yes, I did spend many hours debugging macOS to show local website at work. macOS and Windows shows all kinds of extra confirmation questions if I try to run executeable I compiled.
pxc 5y ago
> macOS, Windows or any other zero-config operating systems ??? Windows and Mac are way more work to set up than Linux because they fundamentally lack systems for managing software comparable to a decent package manager. Everything is a manual, pointy-clicky nightmare, sometimes lightly papered over with hacky hodgepodges like Chocolatey or supplemented with third party tools that are a bit better on macOS but still have to fight against an indifferent base system that cyclically breaks them (Nix, Homebrew), but ultimately still a mess.

sagarm 5y ago

This comment made me laugh out loud. There's no way I'd prefer Windows + WSL to a proper Linux install. I can't stand my OS trying to advertise to me, Windows is a PITA to install/maintain, and I strongly prefer the Gnome UX to Windows (or Mac). With the Steam deck motivating developers to get their games running on Linux (mostly via Wine), with better performance, I see the opposite potential. Linux share on Steam has been steadily growing. To be fair Linux on laptops is still occasionally problematic from a battery life POV, but we're often comparing community support to vendor official support not just the operating systems. Increased motivation from vendors to support Linux should help round out hardware support.

est31 5y ago

I think the linux marketshare among devs is still increasing, even with WSL available. WSL is in fact one of Microsoft's attempts to lure back developers to their OS, or never make them switch. For some folks, like you, this might actually work. But they've lost me as a user since more than a decade and I doubt I'll come back out of my own volition. Even with WSL, Windows is full of bloat, slowness, and I am fully exposed to Microsoft's user-harming antipatterns.

websap 5y ago
Maybe, I'm a minority on HN, but I want my OS to be as transparent as possible while I do my work. Each time I login, I don't want to be greeted with Audio doesn't work, or your email client broke because Outlook Server changed something. My hunch is low code or no code users are also similar, if someone uses Python for some data wrangling tasks, they don't want to deal with a full fledged Linux installation. My developer tool chain generally involves writing backend services. I made a toy project using WSL and VSCode's remote extension and the experience was almost seamless. I was able to get Docker to work, installed GoLang, built my services, use the terminal to push code.
- HKH2 5y ago
  Whenever I'm on Windows I get a stream of non-urgent notifications about updates etc. which is far from staying out of my way.

jimbob45 5y ago

I feel the opposite way. What does Windows have to justify the thousands of dollars necessary to put Windows on every machine in my organization outside of its deadeye security updates team?

bobince 5y ago

The reason I run desktop Linux isn't because it has a particular feature I want. It's to get away from all the Windows features I don't want — bloat, bundleware, ads, telemetry, forced AV, forced cloud features, forced reboots... So WSL doesn't help me, really.