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Again, no other airline was impacted by this? Only 1 of 11 SWA hubs are in Florida[1], there is no way 50% of their aircraft go through Florida on any given day

by Alupis 5y ago

Again, no other airline was impacted by this? Only 1 of 11 SWA hubs are in Florida[1], there is no way 50% of their aircraft go through Florida on any given day. Continues to not make any sense. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines

toast0 5y ago
Southwest has a unique scheduling model where most of the flights are on multi-hop trips, as opposed to other airlines where most or at least many flights are to/from a hub. If you're doing mostly east/west multi-hop trips, it doesn't seem unreasonable for a lot of those to touch Florida. It's a popular destination. It's not suprising that an airline with unique routing faces unique challenges.
- Alupis 5y ago
  Folks, hub-spoke, multi-hops, Florida hub, whatever - none of it matters when a simple 30 minute flight between Los Angeles and San Jose are being cancelled too[1]. Perhaps this LAX -> SJC flight happens to pass through Florida too? Come on... the crews flying these regional routes are the same crews that do it all day every day. Why are these flights impacted too? [1] https://flightaware.com/live/fleet/SWA/cancelled https://flightaware.com/live/fleet/SWA/cancelled
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    > Perhaps this LAX -> SJC flight happens to pass through Florida too? The route, no. The aircraft, very possibly. An aircraft that flew from MIA to LAX last night might be the one intended to fly the LAX to SJC flight today. The flight crew aren't glued to the plane.
  - toast0 5y ago
    I mean... which specific LAX -> SJC flight did you have in mind? Flight 3027[1] does LAX -> SJC, but first it does TPA (Tampa) -> STL (St Louis), and STL -> LAX. There may be some back and forth flights, but if that plane goes back to LAX right away, it's probably flight 2497 [2], which goes to BWI (Baltimore) after LAX. If that plane can't leave Florida in the morning, there goes your noon flight to SJC, and your early afternoon flight to LAX. Plus, the plane may not have made it to Baltimore and the schedule is messed up the next day too. [1] https://www.southwest.com/air/flight-status/path.html?departureDate=2021-10-13&flightNumber=3027 https://www.southwest.com/air/flight-status/path.html?depart... [2] https://www.southwest.com/air/flight-status/path.html?departureDate=2021-10-13&flightNumber=2497 https://www.southwest.com/air/flight-status/path.html?depart...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - t0mas88 5y ago
    You really have no idea how airline scheduling works. A typical trip pairing for a cockpit crew is for 4 or 5 days going all over the country. Start in Atlanta, fly to Miami, back to Atlanta, then to Vegas, sleep there, next morning back to Atlanta, then on to Phoenix, and back to Atlanta again, on to Houston and sleep there. Etc etc for 4 days in a row. So a problem in Miami could easily cause delays and cancellations on a flight that to you looks totally unrelated. The only reason you have less impact in a traditional hub and spoke system is that there are extra aircraft and reserve crews in the hubs (some are at the airport, some at home at a few hours notice) and every other flight passes through the hub. So if the Atlanta to Miami and back thing goes really wrong, another crew and aircraft will fly the Atlanta to Vegas flight and sometimes the rest of the trip. Doesn't happen for a simple delay, but if the delay pushes the crew over their duty time limits on the outbound flight for example the return to hub would be cancelled and a reserve crew would pick up the next flights starting from the hub. The timed-out crew would go to be hotel and fly back as a passenger with the next days flight.
jasonlaramburu 5y ago
Again, the article clearly addresses this. What is the incentive for both Southwest management and the Pilot's Union to lie? “Flight delays and cancellations occurred for a few hours Friday afternoon due to widespread severe weather, military training, and limited staffing in one area of the Jacksonville Air Route Traffic Control Center,” “The big issue is that Florida is roughly 15% of our trips, but on any given day, upwards of 50% of our aircraft lines flow through Florida,” Jordan told TPG. “You’ve got all those lines that just stopped in Florida, so you’ve got a lot of aircraft caught up in that,” “We’re not hub and spoke, and we do very little out-and-back,” Jordan said. “So when you stop a line, you’re stopping a line where the aircraft is attempting to flow across the country.”
- Alupis 5y ago
  The Management lies because admitting their policy led to a cancellation of 30%+ of flights in one day would be devastating. Union lies because an organized walk-out is illegal. Seriously... no other airline is impacted by the weather and ATC issues? The FAA even released a statement contradicting SWA's official excuse.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    > The FAA even released a statement contradicting SWA's official excuse. Where? They're on record supporting the weather and staffing explanations. https://twitter.com/FAANews/status/1447249660884754441 https://twitter.com/FAANews/status/1447249660884754441 "Flight delays & cancellations occurred for a few hours Friday PM due to widespread severe weather, military training, & limited staffing in one area of the Jacksonville en route center." https://twitter.com/FAANews/status/1447708023724679175 https://twitter.com/FAANews/status/1447708023724679175 "To be clear: None of the information from Southwest, its pilots union, or the FAA indicates that this weekend’s cancellations were related to vaccine mandates." They just don't want to be blamed for the cascading failure that took days to resolve. https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2021/10/11/southwest-cancellation-spree https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2021/10/11/southwes... "No FAA air traffic staffing shortages have been reported since Friday."
matwood 5y ago
Other airlines like Delta fly hub and spoke. For example, when I want to fly somewhere on Delta I take a short flight to ATL and then go from there. That flight from my town to ATL happens 5-6x/day. If my town has bad weather, it's mostly only that flight that is impacted. SW does point to point flows. A SW flight might only leave from my town once/day on its way to the next stop and then another. If we have bad weather, all the stops down the line are impacted. Planes are also not the only issue. Crews have strict rules about how much downtime they have to have, so any delays can mean crews run out of flight time. Airline scheduling is complicated.

by Alupis 5y ago

toast0 5y ago

Southwest has a unique scheduling model where most of the flights are on multi-hop trips, as opposed to other airlines where most or at least many flights are to/from a hub. If you're doing mostly east/west multi-hop trips, it doesn't seem unreasonable for a lot of those to touch Florida. It's a popular destination. It's not suprising that an airline with unique routing faces unique challenges.

Alupis 5y ago
Folks, hub-spoke, multi-hops, Florida hub, whatever - none of it matters when a simple 30 minute flight between Los Angeles and San Jose are being cancelled too[1]. Perhaps this LAX -> SJC flight happens to pass through Florida too? Come on... the crews flying these regional routes are the same crews that do it all day every day. Why are these flights impacted too? [1] https://flightaware.com/live/fleet/SWA/cancelled https://flightaware.com/live/fleet/SWA/cancelled
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > Perhaps this LAX -> SJC flight happens to pass through Florida too? The route, no. The aircraft, very possibly. An aircraft that flew from MIA to LAX last night might be the one intended to fly the LAX to SJC flight today. The flight crew aren't glued to the plane.
- toast0 5y ago
  I mean... which specific LAX -> SJC flight did you have in mind? Flight 3027[1] does LAX -> SJC, but first it does TPA (Tampa) -> STL (St Louis), and STL -> LAX. There may be some back and forth flights, but if that plane goes back to LAX right away, it's probably flight 2497 [2], which goes to BWI (Baltimore) after LAX. If that plane can't leave Florida in the morning, there goes your noon flight to SJC, and your early afternoon flight to LAX. Plus, the plane may not have made it to Baltimore and the schedule is messed up the next day too. [1] https://www.southwest.com/air/flight-status/path.html?departureDate=2021-10-13&flightNumber=3027 https://www.southwest.com/air/flight-status/path.html?depart... [2] https://www.southwest.com/air/flight-status/path.html?departureDate=2021-10-13&flightNumber=2497 https://www.southwest.com/air/flight-status/path.html?depart...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- t0mas88 5y ago
  You really have no idea how airline scheduling works. A typical trip pairing for a cockpit crew is for 4 or 5 days going all over the country. Start in Atlanta, fly to Miami, back to Atlanta, then to Vegas, sleep there, next morning back to Atlanta, then on to Phoenix, and back to Atlanta again, on to Houston and sleep there. Etc etc for 4 days in a row. So a problem in Miami could easily cause delays and cancellations on a flight that to you looks totally unrelated. The only reason you have less impact in a traditional hub and spoke system is that there are extra aircraft and reserve crews in the hubs (some are at the airport, some at home at a few hours notice) and every other flight passes through the hub. So if the Atlanta to Miami and back thing goes really wrong, another crew and aircraft will fly the Atlanta to Vegas flight and sometimes the rest of the trip. Doesn't happen for a simple delay, but if the delay pushes the crew over their duty time limits on the outbound flight for example the return to hub would be cancelled and a reserve crew would pick up the next flights starting from the hub. The timed-out crew would go to be hotel and fly back as a passenger with the next days flight.

jasonlaramburu 5y ago

Again, the article clearly addresses this. What is the incentive for both Southwest management and the Pilot's Union to lie? “Flight delays and cancellations occurred for a few hours Friday afternoon due to widespread severe weather, military training, and limited staffing in one area of the Jacksonville Air Route Traffic Control Center,” “The big issue is that Florida is roughly 15% of our trips, but on any given day, upwards of 50% of our aircraft lines flow through Florida,” Jordan told TPG. “You’ve got all those lines that just stopped in Florida, so you’ve got a lot of aircraft caught up in that,” “We’re not hub and spoke, and we do very little out-and-back,” Jordan said. “So when you stop a line, you’re stopping a line where the aircraft is attempting to flow across the country.”

Alupis 5y ago
The Management lies because admitting their policy led to a cancellation of 30%+ of flights in one day would be devastating. Union lies because an organized walk-out is illegal. Seriously... no other airline is impacted by the weather and ATC issues? The FAA even released a statement contradicting SWA's official excuse.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > The FAA even released a statement contradicting SWA's official excuse. Where? They're on record supporting the weather and staffing explanations. https://twitter.com/FAANews/status/1447249660884754441 https://twitter.com/FAANews/status/1447249660884754441 "Flight delays & cancellations occurred for a few hours Friday PM due to widespread severe weather, military training, & limited staffing in one area of the Jacksonville en route center." https://twitter.com/FAANews/status/1447708023724679175 https://twitter.com/FAANews/status/1447708023724679175 "To be clear: None of the information from Southwest, its pilots union, or the FAA indicates that this weekend’s cancellations were related to vaccine mandates." They just don't want to be blamed for the cascading failure that took days to resolve. https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2021/10/11/southwest-cancellation-spree https://www.mynews13.com/fl/orlando/news/2021/10/11/southwes... "No FAA air traffic staffing shortages have been reported since Friday."

matwood 5y ago

Other airlines like Delta fly hub and spoke. For example, when I want to fly somewhere on Delta I take a short flight to ATL and then go from there. That flight from my town to ATL happens 5-6x/day. If my town has bad weather, it's mostly only that flight that is impacted. SW does point to point flows. A SW flight might only leave from my town once/day on its way to the next stop and then another. If we have bad weather, all the stops down the line are impacted. Planes are also not the only issue. Crews have strict rules about how much downtime they have to have, so any delays can mean crews run out of flight time. Airline scheduling is complicated.