6 ms·

Alternatively, the 536 hp, 5018 lbs (2276 kg) BMW i4 ("1,000 lbs (454 kg) more than most other 3 and 4 Series BMWs", not known as lightweight cars in the first

by morsch 5y ago

Alternatively, the 536 hp, 5018 lbs (2276 kg) BMW i4 ("1,000 lbs (454 kg) more than most other 3 and 4 Series BMWs", not known as lightweight cars in the first place) apparently "is the electric BMW sedan you’ve been waiting for". New ways of wasting energy in maximum comfort, all around. https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/10/the-2023-bmw-i4-is-the-electric-bmw-sedan-youve-been-waiting-for/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/10/the-2023-bmw-i4-is-the-...

taurath 5y ago
Quite OT, but the design language of BMW seems lost. I don’t know why the grill needs to be the most distinguishing feature on an electric car.
- henryackerman 5y ago
  The grille is one of the most characteristic design feature of a BMW. Don't forget that a BMW is a luxury product. Why buy a BMW if it does not look like one?
  - taurath 5y ago
    The grille has tripled in size - it’s like a WRX with a 5 foot tall spoiler on the back. It doesn’t look like a luxury product to me.
- stepbeek 5y ago
  I made this comment to my wife yesterday. I like an aggressive grill on a car but find it quite funny that it’s becoming more fashionable as air intake is becoming less important.
trhway 5y ago
>New ways of wasting energy in maximum comfort, all around. "Over the course of 267 miles (430 km) and 8 hours, the car used 2.6 miles/kWh (23.7 kWh/100 km), bearing in mind that those miles were all driven in Germany and include running at the car's top speed of 140 mph (225 km) on derestricted autobahns." ie. around 100 mpg. It is not even close to "waste", it is saving the planet in maximum comfort.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  >It is not even close to "waste", it is saving the planet in maximum comfort. It's less wasteful than the ICE equivalent but in no way can it be described as saving the planet. If you are really serious about saving the planet then you buy a bicycle.
  - trhway 5y ago
    >If you are really serious about saving the planet then you buy a bicycle. bicycle is 100miles/kwh. Human body is 25% efficient, so it is just 25 miles/kwh for the energy coming in the food - so for all the bicycle disadvantages (low speed, open to elements, no meaningful cargo capacity) it is only meager 10x difference with that 2+ tons BMW i4 (and only 7x difference with my Prius Plugin). The kwh in human food is much dirty than kwh for electric car, especially when electricity comes from renewables. The food requires tremendous expenditure of energy to produce it as well as it causes tremendous impact on the planet ecosystem due to agriculture.
    - morsch 5y ago
      I think the implied assumption is that you don't spend 6 hours a day riding the bike you just bought. Though conveniently, the obesity rates are high enough that even this wouldn't require an increase in calorie intake in the top polluting countries and would in fact be an overall improvement to national health. And you'd still produce much lower emissions. On a sidenote, >10% of conventional fuel is made via agriculture, and seemingly around 5% of electricity production in the US, 10% in EU28[1]. [1] https://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/europa/75143/energiemix https://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/europa/751...
- jnsaff2 5y ago
  That top speed part must have been very short as seen from a recent modelY video keeping that 220ish km/h takes about 110kW of power. As opposed to about 15kW for 90km/h.
  - deleted 5y ago
eptcyka 5y ago
Electric cars are heavier, yes. And its easier than ever to get mad power out of electric motors. And it still will be more efficient than literally all ICE powered SUVs. In fact, the power figures are irrelevant IMO, as electric motors scale with demand a lot better. It is incredibly hard to make a reliable ICE that will be incredibly efficient and also capable of big power, but with electric motors, the only downside of having a lot of power is that the whole package probably needs a bigger battery.
- robocat 5y ago
  CO2 output is a fixed manufacturing output (approximately proportional to vehicle cost ignoring taxes/incentives) plus a variable output approximately proportional to distance. If you buy an electric vehicle for short lifetime distance (say, because trip length is limited), you can easily end up producing more CO2 from an electric vehicle than a cheaper ICE vehicle (depending at your location on how a marginal extra kWh is generated due to your marginal extra load on the electricity network). I would like to see a graph of summed CO2 generated per driver on Yaxis per annum (including annualised fixed manufacturing costs), and distance on Xaxis. Two graphs, one for electric vehicles and one for ICE vehicles. At what distance is the crossover point for the two graphs? Do people with long commutes unsuitable for cheaper electric vehicles overwhelm the CO2 production? Personally I think our CO2 production per capita is basically proportional to income: very few changes you make actually change the amount of CO2 produced… The CO2 savings with an electric vehicle are approximately proportional to the savings in $, and you then spend those $ on something else like a plane flight! It is actually quite difficult to make a difference — not that we shouldn’t try of course. It is also very hard to get facts versus greenwashing feel good delusions and deception.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
    If I recall correctly, it’s around the 100,000km for a similar sized vehicle EV vs ICE, when the EV is charged from a mixed source electricity supply similar to what most developed nations presently have (mostly coal, some gas and renewables).
  - eptcyka 5y ago
jnsaff2 5y ago
Also, people in the EV conversion world tended to think that weight was the killer of efficiency. They later found out by experience that weight was much less important than wind resistance with the conclusion that speed is mostly killing your efficiency (along with shape of the car).
- californical 5y ago
  I’ve noticed this recently in my driving. As an experiment, I lowered my highway speed from 75mph to 65mph for a couple weeks, and my gas mileage went from about 26mpg to 34mpg. Car is epa rated for 33. An enormous improvement in efficiency - that experiment has totally changed my driving habits. Knowing that, I can’t believe that I’m basically the slowest car on the road now (going 65, which is the speed limit!). Crazy to think about how much fuel we’re wasting by driving fast
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    You can get similar fuel savings by following a big vehicle like a truck. Even at a safe following distance, the already moving air behind a truck lowers your effective speed by 20mph or so, saving 25-50% of the fuel bill. Trucks that have very little ground clearance (eg a big mudguard across the back) work best. In the extreme case, in an EV, you can end a journey with more battery than you started with if you follow a truck closely (rather too close for safety, and in perfect conditions)
    - leoedin 5y ago
      How would you gain energy in that situation? Surely the EV is still expending some energy? The only way that would work is if you were going down hill. The effect of drafting though is incredible. If you're ever able to get behind a big truck on a bike, it basically becomes effortless to get up to 30mph and stay there. It's quite a thrill (just make sure you have an escape route)
    - tashbarg 5y ago
      I seriously doubt those numbers (-50% fuel, energy harvesting by driving behind a truck) AND you are giving incentive to try dangerous driving. Please either back those numbers up with evidence or remove them for the sake of road safety.

by morsch 5y ago

taurath 5y ago

Quite OT, but the design language of BMW seems lost. I don’t know why the grill needs to be the most distinguishing feature on an electric car.

henryackerman 5y ago
The grille is one of the most characteristic design feature of a BMW. Don't forget that a BMW is a luxury product. Why buy a BMW if it does not look like one?
- taurath 5y ago
  The grille has tripled in size - it’s like a WRX with a 5 foot tall spoiler on the back. It doesn’t look like a luxury product to me.
stepbeek 5y ago
I made this comment to my wife yesterday. I like an aggressive grill on a car but find it quite funny that it’s becoming more fashionable as air intake is becoming less important.

trhway 5y ago

>New ways of wasting energy in maximum comfort, all around. "Over the course of 267 miles (430 km) and 8 hours, the car used 2.6 miles/kWh (23.7 kWh/100 km), bearing in mind that those miles were all driven in Germany and include running at the car's top speed of 140 mph (225 km) on derestricted autobahns." ie. around 100 mpg. It is not even close to "waste", it is saving the planet in maximum comfort.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
>It is not even close to "waste", it is saving the planet in maximum comfort. It's less wasteful than the ICE equivalent but in no way can it be described as saving the planet. If you are really serious about saving the planet then you buy a bicycle.
- trhway 5y ago
  >If you are really serious about saving the planet then you buy a bicycle. bicycle is 100miles/kwh. Human body is 25% efficient, so it is just 25 miles/kwh for the energy coming in the food - so for all the bicycle disadvantages (low speed, open to elements, no meaningful cargo capacity) it is only meager 10x difference with that 2+ tons BMW i4 (and only 7x difference with my Prius Plugin). The kwh in human food is much dirty than kwh for electric car, especially when electricity comes from renewables. The food requires tremendous expenditure of energy to produce it as well as it causes tremendous impact on the planet ecosystem due to agriculture.
  - morsch 5y ago
    I think the implied assumption is that you don't spend 6 hours a day riding the bike you just bought. Though conveniently, the obesity rates are high enough that even this wouldn't require an increase in calorie intake in the top polluting countries and would in fact be an overall improvement to national health. And you'd still produce much lower emissions. On a sidenote, >10% of conventional fuel is made via agriculture, and seemingly around 5% of electricity production in the US, 10% in EU28[1]. [1] https://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/europa/75143/energiemix https://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-fakten/europa/751...
jnsaff2 5y ago
That top speed part must have been very short as seen from a recent modelY video keeping that 220ish km/h takes about 110kW of power. As opposed to about 15kW for 90km/h.
- deleted 5y ago

eptcyka 5y ago

Electric cars are heavier, yes. And its easier than ever to get mad power out of electric motors. And it still will be more efficient than literally all ICE powered SUVs. In fact, the power figures are irrelevant IMO, as electric motors scale with demand a lot better. It is incredibly hard to make a reliable ICE that will be incredibly efficient and also capable of big power, but with electric motors, the only downside of having a lot of power is that the whole package probably needs a bigger battery.

robocat 5y ago
CO2 output is a fixed manufacturing output (approximately proportional to vehicle cost ignoring taxes/incentives) plus a variable output approximately proportional to distance. If you buy an electric vehicle for short lifetime distance (say, because trip length is limited), you can easily end up producing more CO2 from an electric vehicle than a cheaper ICE vehicle (depending at your location on how a marginal extra kWh is generated due to your marginal extra load on the electricity network). I would like to see a graph of summed CO2 generated per driver on Yaxis per annum (including annualised fixed manufacturing costs), and distance on Xaxis. Two graphs, one for electric vehicles and one for ICE vehicles. At what distance is the crossover point for the two graphs? Do people with long commutes unsuitable for cheaper electric vehicles overwhelm the CO2 production? Personally I think our CO2 production per capita is basically proportional to income: very few changes you make actually change the amount of CO2 produced… The CO2 savings with an electric vehicle are approximately proportional to the savings in $, and you then spend those $ on something else like a plane flight! It is actually quite difficult to make a difference — not that we shouldn’t try of course. It is also very hard to get facts versus greenwashing feel good delusions and deception.
- TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
  If I recall correctly, it’s around the 100,000km for a similar sized vehicle EV vs ICE, when the EV is charged from a mixed source electricity supply similar to what most developed nations presently have (mostly coal, some gas and renewables).
- eptcyka 5y ago

jnsaff2 5y ago

Also, people in the EV conversion world tended to think that weight was the killer of efficiency. They later found out by experience that weight was much less important than wind resistance with the conclusion that speed is mostly killing your efficiency (along with shape of the car).

californical 5y ago
I’ve noticed this recently in my driving. As an experiment, I lowered my highway speed from 75mph to 65mph for a couple weeks, and my gas mileage went from about 26mpg to 34mpg. Car is epa rated for 33. An enormous improvement in efficiency - that experiment has totally changed my driving habits. Knowing that, I can’t believe that I’m basically the slowest car on the road now (going 65, which is the speed limit!). Crazy to think about how much fuel we’re wasting by driving fast
- londons_explore 5y ago
  You can get similar fuel savings by following a big vehicle like a truck. Even at a safe following distance, the already moving air behind a truck lowers your effective speed by 20mph or so, saving 25-50% of the fuel bill. Trucks that have very little ground clearance (eg a big mudguard across the back) work best. In the extreme case, in an EV, you can end a journey with more battery than you started with if you follow a truck closely (rather too close for safety, and in perfect conditions)
  - leoedin 5y ago
    How would you gain energy in that situation? Surely the EV is still expending some energy? The only way that would work is if you were going down hill. The effect of drafting though is incredible. If you're ever able to get behind a big truck on a bike, it basically becomes effortless to get up to 30mph and stay there. It's quite a thrill (just make sure you have an escape route)
  - tashbarg 5y ago
    I seriously doubt those numbers (-50% fuel, energy harvesting by driving behind a truck) AND you are giving incentive to try dangerous driving. Please either back those numbers up with evidence or remove them for the sake of road safety.