5 ms·

> It's never ethical to compel the innocent to do anything. What does that even mean? Innocent of what, having an immune system? Financial incentives, such as

> It's never ethical to compel the innocent to do anything. What does that even mean? Innocent of what, having an immune system? Financial incentives, such as being fired if you create a hazardous workplace by refusing vaccination, are a form of compulsion on an escalating ladder of methods to convince people. The government absolutely leaned on business to make that happen in order to avoid a direct mandate.

brigandish 5y ago
> What does that even mean? Innocent of what, having an immune system? Innocent of a crime. That's it's usual meaning, and we compel those guilty of crimes to do things they don't want to. > Financial incentives, such as being fired if you create a hazardous workplace by refusing vaccination, are a form of compulsion on an escalating ladder of methods to convince people. That's not an incentive, that's a punishment. I do agree, however, that it is a form of compulsion (a compulsion is never also an incentive).
- kelseyfrog 5y ago
  What a strange way of looking at the world. When did you choose to have that perspective and why?
  - brigandish 5y ago
    You need to be more specific, especially to keep within the commenting guidelines https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments
- sriram_malhar 5y ago
  I'm not sure what you are referring to with terms like "innocent", "crime", "compulsion" etc when the topic is a covid vaccine. I don't know why everyone's up in arms about this particular vaccine. Kids around the world are given vaccines for polio, diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, measles, tuberculosis, hepatitis B, hiaemophilus influenza type b (Hib), diarrhea, smallpox etc. Why is everyone up in arms about this particular vaccine, esp. when the mRNA based ones don't even have any part of the virus? I can't think of any reason other than stupid/criminal politicians on the right using whatever slogans they can to influence their sheeple to maintain their foothold. Jeez.
  - brigandish 5y ago
    > I'm not sure what you are referring to with terms like "innocent", "crime", "compulsion" etc when the topic is a covid vaccine. Why I'm referring to them is because the only members of society we usually compel to do anything are: - children - those in the military - those guilty of a crime - those who have lost their mind Adults innocent of a crime, not in the military, and who are compos mentis are not subject to compulsion - to compel them would likely be a crime. > I don't know why everyone's up in arms about this particular vaccine. I am not everyone and I am not up in arms about the vaccine, I am responding to the element of compulsion and violation of the normal situation of legal standing between an individual and the government (who would be the ones doing the compelling). If you compel someone to get any of the other vaccines listed, then I would be "up in arms" about that too.
    - sriram_malhar 5y ago
      All laws and rules of a society are compulsions if you want to read it that way. Stopping at a red light, removing ones shoes at the airport, not going the other way on a one-way street, headlights turned on in the dark, stopping for pedestrians .... these are all compulsions and public safety measures. I see the covid vaccines (now that they have been so extraordinarily tested) as benignly ... I don't see why words such as 'compulsion' and 'crime' even enter the picture.
      - brigandish 5y ago
        I find that when people need to expand the definitions of common words to render them virtually meaningless and, more importantly, strangely convenient to their point of view and the argument they are presenting, that is the point I realise that they’re not interested in a proper discussion and leave, entirely unpersuaded.
- arrosenberg 5y ago
  > Innocent of a crime. That's it's usual meaning, and we compel those guilty of crimes to do things they don't want to. They're not guilty of a crime on the books, but I would hardly call antivaxxers innocent. COVID has taken 700K lives and many more long term casualties who will have chronic, lingering effects. A large portion would have been spared if the holdouts would wear masks and take the vaccine. > That's not an incentive, that's a punishment. I do agree, however, that it is a form of compulsion (a compulsion is never also an incentive). Punishments are an incentive (prison time is an incentive not to do crime) and compulsory requirements can be incentivized (you have to register for selective service in order to vote). Moreover, if you want to talk about the law, no one is entitled to their current job, and employers have been given carte blanche to set and modify employment conditions. Losing ones' job for failing to meet the bare minimum workplace safety requirement of not being a vector for a highly communicable disease is free to forfeit their job, but they are not entitled to be a victim about it. That's a personal choice.
  - brigandish 5y ago
    > They're not guilty of a crime on the books Then they are innocent and there should be no compulsion. > I would hardly call antivaxxers innocent 1. People who are against compelling the innocent are not antivaxxers by dint of being against that. 2. Those who would compel innocent people probably are and should be guilty of a crime on the books. > Punishments are an incentive They're not, they are a disincentive. Incentives encourage, disincentives discourage. The carrot is an incentive, the stick is a disincentive. > Moreover, if you want to talk about the law, no one is entitled to their current job Did I mention tyranny? > and employers have been given carte blanche to set and modify employment conditions I'm not an American and even if I were, not all states have the same rules for employment. You're creating a straw man. If we were really talking about the law, and criminal law at that, where's the mens rea? > Losing ones' job for failing to meet the bare minimum workplace safety requirement of not being a vector for a highly communicable disease It's not a bare minimum requirement unless you start compelling people, you're begging the question. > is free to forfeit their job, but they are not entitled to be a victim about it. That's a personal choice. I'm pretty sure I heard this form of argument in the 80s about homosexuals and HIV, it didn't hold water then and it shouldn't now. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Edit: a tyrannical typo
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
  Everyone is compelled to do many things they don't want to do every day.
  - brigandish 5y ago
    Are they compelled by law to undertake invasive medical procedures? From [1]: > An invasive procedure is one where purposeful/deliberate access to the body is gained via an incision, percutaneous puncture, where instrumentation is used in addition to the puncture needle, or instrumentation via a natural orifice. It begins when entry to the body is gained and ends when the instrument is removed, and/or the skin is closed. Invasive procedures are performed by trained healthcare professionals using instruments, which include, but are not limited to, endoscopes, catheters, scalpels, scissors, devices and tubes. Without the consent of the person it would constitute a serious form of assault and battery, a common law crime that stretches back at least 1000 years. I do hope that you or anyone else is not subject to such things on a daily basis. Are you? [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6678000/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6678000/

brigandish 5y ago

> What does that even mean? Innocent of what, having an immune system? Innocent of a crime. That's it's usual meaning, and we compel those guilty of crimes to do things they don't want to. > Financial incentives, such as being fired if you create a hazardous workplace by refusing vaccination, are a form of compulsion on an escalating ladder of methods to convince people. That's not an incentive, that's a punishment. I do agree, however, that it is a form of compulsion (a compulsion is never also an incentive).

kelseyfrog 5y ago
What a strange way of looking at the world. When did you choose to have that perspective and why?
- brigandish 5y ago
  You need to be more specific, especially to keep within the commenting guidelines https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#comments
sriram_malhar 5y ago
I'm not sure what you are referring to with terms like "innocent", "crime", "compulsion" etc when the topic is a covid vaccine. I don't know why everyone's up in arms about this particular vaccine. Kids around the world are given vaccines for polio, diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, measles, tuberculosis, hepatitis B, hiaemophilus influenza type b (Hib), diarrhea, smallpox etc. Why is everyone up in arms about this particular vaccine, esp. when the mRNA based ones don't even have any part of the virus? I can't think of any reason other than stupid/criminal politicians on the right using whatever slogans they can to influence their sheeple to maintain their foothold. Jeez.
- brigandish 5y ago
  > I'm not sure what you are referring to with terms like "innocent", "crime", "compulsion" etc when the topic is a covid vaccine. Why I'm referring to them is because the only members of society we usually compel to do anything are: - children - those in the military - those guilty of a crime - those who have lost their mind Adults innocent of a crime, not in the military, and who are compos mentis are not subject to compulsion - to compel them would likely be a crime. > I don't know why everyone's up in arms about this particular vaccine. I am not everyone and I am not up in arms about the vaccine, I am responding to the element of compulsion and violation of the normal situation of legal standing between an individual and the government (who would be the ones doing the compelling). If you compel someone to get any of the other vaccines listed, then I would be "up in arms" about that too.
  - sriram_malhar 5y ago
    All laws and rules of a society are compulsions if you want to read it that way. Stopping at a red light, removing ones shoes at the airport, not going the other way on a one-way street, headlights turned on in the dark, stopping for pedestrians .... these are all compulsions and public safety measures. I see the covid vaccines (now that they have been so extraordinarily tested) as benignly ... I don't see why words such as 'compulsion' and 'crime' even enter the picture.
    - brigandish 5y ago
      I find that when people need to expand the definitions of common words to render them virtually meaningless and, more importantly, strangely convenient to their point of view and the argument they are presenting, that is the point I realise that they’re not interested in a proper discussion and leave, entirely unpersuaded.
arrosenberg 5y ago
> Innocent of a crime. That's it's usual meaning, and we compel those guilty of crimes to do things they don't want to. They're not guilty of a crime on the books, but I would hardly call antivaxxers innocent. COVID has taken 700K lives and many more long term casualties who will have chronic, lingering effects. A large portion would have been spared if the holdouts would wear masks and take the vaccine. > That's not an incentive, that's a punishment. I do agree, however, that it is a form of compulsion (a compulsion is never also an incentive). Punishments are an incentive (prison time is an incentive not to do crime) and compulsory requirements can be incentivized (you have to register for selective service in order to vote). Moreover, if you want to talk about the law, no one is entitled to their current job, and employers have been given carte blanche to set and modify employment conditions. Losing ones' job for failing to meet the bare minimum workplace safety requirement of not being a vector for a highly communicable disease is free to forfeit their job, but they are not entitled to be a victim about it. That's a personal choice.
- brigandish 5y ago
  > They're not guilty of a crime on the books Then they are innocent and there should be no compulsion. > I would hardly call antivaxxers innocent 1. People who are against compelling the innocent are not antivaxxers by dint of being against that. 2. Those who would compel innocent people probably are and should be guilty of a crime on the books. > Punishments are an incentive They're not, they are a disincentive. Incentives encourage, disincentives discourage. The carrot is an incentive, the stick is a disincentive. > Moreover, if you want to talk about the law, no one is entitled to their current job Did I mention tyranny? > and employers have been given carte blanche to set and modify employment conditions I'm not an American and even if I were, not all states have the same rules for employment. You're creating a straw man. If we were really talking about the law, and criminal law at that, where's the mens rea? > Losing ones' job for failing to meet the bare minimum workplace safety requirement of not being a vector for a highly communicable disease It's not a bare minimum requirement unless you start compelling people, you're begging the question. > is free to forfeit their job, but they are not entitled to be a victim about it. That's a personal choice. I'm pretty sure I heard this form of argument in the 80s about homosexuals and HIV, it didn't hold water then and it shouldn't now. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Edit: a tyrannical typo
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
Everyone is compelled to do many things they don't want to do every day.
- brigandish 5y ago
  Are they compelled by law to undertake invasive medical procedures? From [1]: > An invasive procedure is one where purposeful/deliberate access to the body is gained via an incision, percutaneous puncture, where instrumentation is used in addition to the puncture needle, or instrumentation via a natural orifice. It begins when entry to the body is gained and ends when the instrument is removed, and/or the skin is closed. Invasive procedures are performed by trained healthcare professionals using instruments, which include, but are not limited to, endoscopes, catheters, scalpels, scissors, devices and tubes. Without the consent of the person it would constitute a serious form of assault and battery, a common law crime that stretches back at least 1000 years. I do hope that you or anyone else is not subject to such things on a daily basis. Are you? [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6678000/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6678000/