5 ms·

> However, 58% thought that nuclear power caused climate change while only 46% thought that coal burning did so This raises some interesting thoughts about the

> However, 58% thought that nuclear power caused climate change while only 46% thought that coal burning did so This raises some interesting thoughts about the nature and importance of democracy.

Hermel 5y ago
Why do you assume that the average politician is better informed than the average citizen?
- asdff 5y ago
  The average politician at least has reports prepared for them by government scientists and engineers, while the average citizen only hears about things after they've gone through the telephone game of the media.
  - Hermel 5y ago
    The average politician also has reports and diners prepared by lobbyists and others that want to influence his or her judgement. Not sure if that is a net gain for objectivity.
misiti3780 5y ago
how so?
- bittercynic 5y ago
  It seems like a pretty big problem when the electorate is this misinformed on an issue that's so straightforward, and important.
- blamazon 5y ago
  In the data provided, the majority believes that burning coal does not cause climate change, while nuclear power does. In fact, it is the reverse--coal's impact on climate change is exponentially more than nuclear. Thus, if the data is accurate, and if the majority rules directly, from these viewpoints it suggests that investments would be made into coal, and reduced from nuclear, which is aligned with creating more climate change, not less. So, this implies that, for these data, democracy and taking action against climate doom are compatible.
  - blamazon 5y ago
    Aren’t* ;)
dehrmann 5y ago
A horrifyingly large portion of the population believes all sorts of stupid things. The sad thing for democracy is most people don't understand policy or even civics well enough to make an informed decision on a candidate. Even then, most candidates don't either, and they end up relying on advisors and lobbyists. The fun implication of campaign finance reform is it implies elections can be bought (just ask Michael Bloomberg), and people can't sort out political messages for themselves. Oh, the good news about two-party democracy is it mostly keeps 20% views out of politics entirely. 58%/46% is a problem, though.
- belval 5y ago
  I'd go one step further and say that we all believe in all sorts of stupid things. It's just that we are unaware of our own misconceptions because they aren't often disproven. Democracy works when the population is generally educated because the mean opinion (or the opinion held by the most people) should converge to the "right" one.
  - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
    The population has to have access to the truth though. One bellend (idiot) spouts lies in front of a bus, supported by media magnates. A couple of years later we have fuel and food shortages, myriad supply chain issues, broken off from a treaty that gave us relatively stable local peace for 50+years, etc.. Now COVID has plummeted us into a place where the exchequer has been exploited to the hilt for 'contracts for the boys' (nepotistic corruption) because the oversight of our former arrangements have been stripped away. Our representatives are actively conning the population into voting against their own (the populations) best interests. Just having generally good education levels isn't seemingly protecting us from powerful ruling classes who simply don't care and are willing to use their power to exploit the population.
nitrogen 5y ago
Or at least the success and role of schools and the media.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  And long term emergent structures of society. Not to step too much in conspiracy but an economy first system might naturally steer toward medium level education so that money flows without people thinking too hard or be able to be independent from the usual marketing tricks. It's almost a natural order, smart and cynical will be rewarded by high ranks, while the clueless mass will be spun to fuel the system.
  - nitrogen 5y ago
    Reminds me of this optimized city in SimCity: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJQTc-TqpU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJQTc-TqpU https://www.neatorama.com/2010/10/16/magnasanti-the-largest-possible-sim-city/ https://www.neatorama.com/2010/10/16/magnasanti-the-largest-...
01100011 5y ago
I remain a supporter of democracy but do have serious doubts regarding the ability of the majority of humankind to maintain a sufficient understanding of the increasingly complex world they control. Large portions of the US population seem to have problems with basic reasoning skills. I'm not sure the school system or western culture is capable of rectifying that anytime soon.
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  > Alvin Toffler argued that society is undergoing an enormous structural change, a revolution from an industrial society to a "super-industrial society". This change overwhelms people. He argues that the accelerated rate of technological and social change leaves people disconnected and suffering from "shattering stress and disorientation"—future shocked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Shock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Shock
- systemvoltage 5y ago
  Representative democracy helps in this regard.
  - asdff 5y ago
    It also makes it easy for charlatans to take the helm by appealing to nonsense.
- godelski 5y ago
  I think the bigger issue is that everyone feels they need to be an expert on every subject. Look at any of these conversations on nuclear and/or climate. Climate is the most complex problems humans face today yet we all pretty much act like we're experts and all pretend it's purely political will to solving the problem. Even on a tech forum where the average person is much more tech literate these beliefs and actions are common. The problem isn't that the world is getting more complex. The problem is that we're unwilling to admit it.
  - 01100011 5y ago
agumonkey 5y ago
Democracy is probably not what's it said to be, it's a necessary emotional escape valve. People are too random to be heard with 100% equal value as you point at. The hierarchy filters through knowledge to steer.
therealdrag0 5y ago
Maybe the deepest point is that if the voters are ignorant about this they can't be trusted on anything. But a shallow perhaps more practical take away is that voters shouldn't be asked about implementation details, only values.
pydry 5y ago
Although it is an poll with a weird and surprising result from a nuclear lobby group with a strong interest in depicting the general public as "in need of education" on nuclear issues. As far as I can see there are no details about who ran the poll.
Gupie 5y ago
As it has been said democracy is rubbish, the only thing going for it is that it is better than the alternatives.

> However, 58% thought that nuclear power caused climate change while only 46% thought that coal burning did so This raises some interesting thoughts about the nature and importance of democracy.

Hermel 5y ago

Why do you assume that the average politician is better informed than the average citizen?

asdff 5y ago
The average politician at least has reports prepared for them by government scientists and engineers, while the average citizen only hears about things after they've gone through the telephone game of the media.
- Hermel 5y ago
  The average politician also has reports and diners prepared by lobbyists and others that want to influence his or her judgement. Not sure if that is a net gain for objectivity.

misiti3780 5y ago

how so?

bittercynic 5y ago
It seems like a pretty big problem when the electorate is this misinformed on an issue that's so straightforward, and important.
blamazon 5y ago
In the data provided, the majority believes that burning coal does not cause climate change, while nuclear power does. In fact, it is the reverse--coal's impact on climate change is exponentially more than nuclear. Thus, if the data is accurate, and if the majority rules directly, from these viewpoints it suggests that investments would be made into coal, and reduced from nuclear, which is aligned with creating more climate change, not less. So, this implies that, for these data, democracy and taking action against climate doom are compatible.
- blamazon 5y ago
  Aren’t* ;)

dehrmann 5y ago

A horrifyingly large portion of the population believes all sorts of stupid things. The sad thing for democracy is most people don't understand policy or even civics well enough to make an informed decision on a candidate. Even then, most candidates don't either, and they end up relying on advisors and lobbyists. The fun implication of campaign finance reform is it implies elections can be bought (just ask Michael Bloomberg), and people can't sort out political messages for themselves. Oh, the good news about two-party democracy is it mostly keeps 20% views out of politics entirely. 58%/46% is a problem, though.

belval 5y ago
I'd go one step further and say that we all believe in all sorts of stupid things. It's just that we are unaware of our own misconceptions because they aren't often disproven. Democracy works when the population is generally educated because the mean opinion (or the opinion held by the most people) should converge to the "right" one.
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  The population has to have access to the truth though. One bellend (idiot) spouts lies in front of a bus, supported by media magnates. A couple of years later we have fuel and food shortages, myriad supply chain issues, broken off from a treaty that gave us relatively stable local peace for 50+years, etc.. Now COVID has plummeted us into a place where the exchequer has been exploited to the hilt for 'contracts for the boys' (nepotistic corruption) because the oversight of our former arrangements have been stripped away. Our representatives are actively conning the population into voting against their own (the populations) best interests. Just having generally good education levels isn't seemingly protecting us from powerful ruling classes who simply don't care and are willing to use their power to exploit the population.

nitrogen 5y ago

Or at least the success and role of schools and the media.

agumonkey 5y ago
And long term emergent structures of society. Not to step too much in conspiracy but an economy first system might naturally steer toward medium level education so that money flows without people thinking too hard or be able to be independent from the usual marketing tricks. It's almost a natural order, smart and cynical will be rewarded by high ranks, while the clueless mass will be spun to fuel the system.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  Reminds me of this optimized city in SimCity: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJQTc-TqpU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJQTc-TqpU https://www.neatorama.com/2010/10/16/magnasanti-the-largest-possible-sim-city/ https://www.neatorama.com/2010/10/16/magnasanti-the-largest-...

01100011 5y ago

I remain a supporter of democracy but do have serious doubts regarding the ability of the majority of humankind to maintain a sufficient understanding of the increasingly complex world they control. Large portions of the US population seem to have problems with basic reasoning skills. I'm not sure the school system or western culture is capable of rectifying that anytime soon.

dane-pgp 5y ago
> Alvin Toffler argued that society is undergoing an enormous structural change, a revolution from an industrial society to a "super-industrial society". This change overwhelms people. He argues that the accelerated rate of technological and social change leaves people disconnected and suffering from "shattering stress and disorientation"—future shocked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Shock https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_Shock
systemvoltage 5y ago
Representative democracy helps in this regard.
- asdff 5y ago
  It also makes it easy for charlatans to take the helm by appealing to nonsense.
godelski 5y ago
I think the bigger issue is that everyone feels they need to be an expert on every subject. Look at any of these conversations on nuclear and/or climate. Climate is the most complex problems humans face today yet we all pretty much act like we're experts and all pretend it's purely political will to solving the problem. Even on a tech forum where the average person is much more tech literate these beliefs and actions are common. The problem isn't that the world is getting more complex. The problem is that we're unwilling to admit it.
- 01100011 5y ago

agumonkey 5y ago

Democracy is probably not what's it said to be, it's a necessary emotional escape valve. People are too random to be heard with 100% equal value as you point at. The hierarchy filters through knowledge to steer.

therealdrag0 5y ago

Maybe the deepest point is that if the voters are ignorant about this they can't be trusted on anything. But a shallow perhaps more practical take away is that voters shouldn't be asked about implementation details, only values.

pydry 5y ago

Although it is an poll with a weird and surprising result from a nuclear lobby group with a strong interest in depicting the general public as "in need of education" on nuclear issues. As far as I can see there are no details about who ran the poll.

Gupie 5y ago

As it has been said democracy is rubbish, the only thing going for it is that it is better than the alternatives.