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I've never understood why Hirohito was kept in-place by McArthur and the USA (the OP touches on this only briefly). The institution of Emperor is closely tied-

I've never understood why Hirohito was kept in-place by McArthur and the USA (the OP touches on this only briefly). The institution of Emperor is closely tied-up with rightwing Japanese nationalism, whatever the imperial flavour-du-jour is. I fear and dislike all rightwing nationalism. But an "emperor" is a byword for invading and dominating your geographical neighbours. An emperor that is also a god seems like a particularly bad idea.

dukeyukey 5y ago
Japan has had an Emperor pretty much since Japan became a thing, going back at least since 100-ish BC and maybe a few hundred years beforehand. Getting rid of such a foundational institution is _not_ the way to get the population on your side and back to work.
disneygibson 5y ago
The Japanese emperor concept precedes Western “invade everyone” imperialism by about a thousand years and has historically almost nothing to do with other countries. It really took Western ideas of imperialism to get Japan to be interested in the outside world.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  The Romans were into the "invade everything" business, 2,500 years ago. They ruled over kingdoms all around the Mediterranean. The Greeks (well, Macedonians, if you prefer) built an empire that lasted 1,000 years, and stretched from the Mediterranean to Afghanistan. All during the lifetime of a warrior who died aged 32 (?). That was around 320BC. So you have to go quite early in history, to find a culture that precedes "invade everything" imperialism (I doubt that there is any "beginning" to invade-everyone imperialism).
- suction 5y ago
  Which of course is also the go-to "excuse" of the modern Japanese right-wingers to deflect any blame from the "pure" Japanese for what they did.
  - disneygibson 5y ago
    Not sure how that has anything to do with my comment. I’ll repeat it: the primary reasons which caused Japan to become “imperialist” are directly tied to Western imperialism. The Japanese emperor was mostly a political symbolic figurehead that united the Japanese islands, not a Roman emperor or British monarch intent on conquering the world. This is all basic Japanese history.
    - suction 5y ago
      Oh, it has everything to do with it. I don't understand how you couldn't see that, immediately, so I don't think further explanation would help you.
    - Gupie 5y ago
      Are you forgetting the 1592 Japanese invasions of Korea which had the intent of conquering the Korean Peninsula and then the whole of China?
      - numpad0 5y ago
        I don’t think he is. Not even Korean right wings blame emperors for that invasion. By all intents and purposes it is Hideyoshi’s invasion.
        Gupie 5y ago
        My comment was in response to his assertion that "the primary reasons which caused Japan to become imperialist are directly tied to Western imperialism".
        numpad0 5y ago
        These are indeed matters of basic Japanese history as GP claims, although I’m not too sure whether “basic Japanese history” is actually common knowledges except for Japanese history majors or someone who has gone through Japanese compulsory education. Wikipedia article on Shogun[1] has a nice quick summary on pre-modern Shogunate system. It’s similar to British constitutional monarchy in a sense: the emperor was to delegate all power to the government and was to remain within instructions and supervisions of the government. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shogun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shogun
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
suction 5y ago
It seems the common explanation is that the US went the "reverse course" to have a bulwark against the rise of communism in East Asia. Japan was not to adopt communism at any cost. And the best way to ensure a society does not adopt communism is to give the diametrically opposed forces in the country the upper hand: Right-wing nationalism. So many people who were responsible for the worst atrocities Japan committed in the last two decades in Asia were made leaders of the new "democratised" Japan. Hirohito as the spearhead was only one example. The people who were actuallt prosecuted and sentenced to death for war crimes were all deemed expendable by the Japanese anyway. This is what haunts Japan until today - Nippon Kaigi, Nippon Foundation (aka Sasakawa Foundation), etc. are all basically think tanks and well-budgeted secret government agencies promoting right-wing nationalist or even borderline fascist ideas in Japan and astroturfing them overseas. Just read about the Sasakawa Foundation to get an idea.
kibwen 5y ago
> An emperor that is also a god seems like a particularly bad idea. Remember that a condition of retaining the institution of emperor was the public renunciation of the emperor's godhood: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanity_Declaration https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanity_Declaration > But an "emperor" is a byword for invading and dominating your geographical neighbours. This might be reading too much into the English translation; we'd want to ask what the actual Japanese title is and what semantic implications it has in Japanese.
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  I'd also like to point out that "invading and dominating your geographical neighbours" has actually been the norm throughout all of human civilization until very recently - and it still happens but under convoluted pretenses.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    > until very recently I do not think that custom has gone away. I seem to be at war with my next-door neighbour, over rubbish-disposal; I just don't know which neighbour, what he looks like, or what his name is (but I'm not trying to seize his property by force of arms!) People go to war with their neighbours over REAL things, like water-rights, and access to minerals and other resources. Those real things are still real. Fortunately, imperial wars don't seem to happen much these days; perhaps because great imperial powers can now transport a heavily-armed army of 200,000 across the world in a few days, squishing your imperial ambitions. But the motivation is unchanged. Perhaps the Chinese occupation of Tibet is an example? (Tibet used to be the imperial power, once upon a time - Chinese diplomats in the 14th C used to kow-tow to Tibetan kings)
MomoXenosaga 5y ago
Because WW2 was over and everyone thought WW3 was imminent. The Japanese were extremely anti communist to the point that it would make McCarthy look like a hippie.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  "Never trust a hippie" ~ Johnny Rotten As a one-time hippie, I'm with Rotten on that. Very few hippes retained their principles. Lots of them had trust-funds. Lots of them are here on HN (sorry chaps; I don't mean to imply that you're all money-grubbing wretches, happy to have swapped your principles for a San Francisco developer's salary!)
Bayart 5y ago
"Emperor" is a Latin title (through Old French). Whatever martial implorations might simply not exist in Japanese. English isn't the universal language, its semantics aren't enough to describe all of humanity's reality.
- dustintrex 5y ago
  天皇 is literally "heavenly king", and the full Japanese WW2 war cry was 天皇陛下万歳 Tennou heika banzai, "May the Emperor live ten thousand years". So yes, the implications are pretty martial, although the Emperors themselves don't sully themselves with actual fighting.
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    Yeah, and “For king and country!” Is not? I’m not sure what you are trying to say. Obviously war cries are going to be, well, martial. I don’t see anyone shouting that now, and even if they did there wouldn’t be any martial connotations.
    - dustintrex 5y ago
      GP was suggesting that emperor/天皇 may not have martial connotations in Japan, I'm pointing out that it does. As a perhaps better example, Japan's official name is now the bland State of Japan 日本国, and the old Great Japanese Empire 大日本帝国 sounds positively jingoistic. And FWIW, it's not particularly hard to find fringe groups in Tokyo that proclaim their devotion to the Emperor from black vans equipped with loudspeakers.
  - Bayart 5y ago
    >So yes, the implications are pretty martial The implications of these terms are spiritual, cosmogonic and social. I don't see what's martial about calling the big guy heavenly king or to wish "ten thousand years", all the more so that the later is a Chinese stock phrase and Japan imported their governance model part and parcel. If the Australian army went to war at the cries of "Vegemite or death !", would you say Vegemite has martial implications ?
- 5y ago
nobody0 5y ago
I don't know why you are downvoted. But given even Unit 731 was granted immunity by the US, I guess justice ceded its place back then. It's sad to see politicians made those 'practical' decisions to protect those criminals. Let alone countless people lost their lives or suffered just because a room of people wanted wars. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

dukeyukey 5y ago

Japan has had an Emperor pretty much since Japan became a thing, going back at least since 100-ish BC and maybe a few hundred years beforehand. Getting rid of such a foundational institution is _not_ the way to get the population on your side and back to work.

disneygibson 5y ago

The Japanese emperor concept precedes Western “invade everyone” imperialism by about a thousand years and has historically almost nothing to do with other countries. It really took Western ideas of imperialism to get Japan to be interested in the outside world.

denton-scratch 5y ago
The Romans were into the "invade everything" business, 2,500 years ago. They ruled over kingdoms all around the Mediterranean. The Greeks (well, Macedonians, if you prefer) built an empire that lasted 1,000 years, and stretched from the Mediterranean to Afghanistan. All during the lifetime of a warrior who died aged 32 (?). That was around 320BC. So you have to go quite early in history, to find a culture that precedes "invade everything" imperialism (I doubt that there is any "beginning" to invade-everyone imperialism).
suction 5y ago
Which of course is also the go-to "excuse" of the modern Japanese right-wingers to deflect any blame from the "pure" Japanese for what they did.
- disneygibson 5y ago
  Not sure how that has anything to do with my comment. I’ll repeat it: the primary reasons which caused Japan to become “imperialist” are directly tied to Western imperialism. The Japanese emperor was mostly a political symbolic figurehead that united the Japanese islands, not a Roman emperor or British monarch intent on conquering the world. This is all basic Japanese history.
  - suction 5y ago
    Oh, it has everything to do with it. I don't understand how you couldn't see that, immediately, so I don't think further explanation would help you.
  - Gupie 5y ago
    Are you forgetting the 1592 Japanese invasions of Korea which had the intent of conquering the Korean Peninsula and then the whole of China?
    - numpad0 5y ago
      I don’t think he is. Not even Korean right wings blame emperors for that invasion. By all intents and purposes it is Hideyoshi’s invasion.
      - Gupie 5y ago
        My comment was in response to his assertion that "the primary reasons which caused Japan to become imperialist are directly tied to Western imperialism".
        numpad0 5y ago
        These are indeed matters of basic Japanese history as GP claims, although I’m not too sure whether “basic Japanese history” is actually common knowledges except for Japanese history majors or someone who has gone through Japanese compulsory education. Wikipedia article on Shogun[1] has a nice quick summary on pre-modern Shogunate system. It’s similar to British constitutional monarchy in a sense: the emperor was to delegate all power to the government and was to remain within instructions and supervisions of the government. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shogun https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shogun
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

suction 5y ago

It seems the common explanation is that the US went the "reverse course" to have a bulwark against the rise of communism in East Asia. Japan was not to adopt communism at any cost. And the best way to ensure a society does not adopt communism is to give the diametrically opposed forces in the country the upper hand: Right-wing nationalism. So many people who were responsible for the worst atrocities Japan committed in the last two decades in Asia were made leaders of the new "democratised" Japan. Hirohito as the spearhead was only one example. The people who were actuallt prosecuted and sentenced to death for war crimes were all deemed expendable by the Japanese anyway. This is what haunts Japan until today - Nippon Kaigi, Nippon Foundation (aka Sasakawa Foundation), etc. are all basically think tanks and well-budgeted secret government agencies promoting right-wing nationalist or even borderline fascist ideas in Japan and astroturfing them overseas. Just read about the Sasakawa Foundation to get an idea.

kibwen 5y ago

> An emperor that is also a god seems like a particularly bad idea. Remember that a condition of retaining the institution of emperor was the public renunciation of the emperor's godhood: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanity_Declaration https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanity_Declaration > But an "emperor" is a byword for invading and dominating your geographical neighbours. This might be reading too much into the English translation; we'd want to ask what the actual Japanese title is and what semantic implications it has in Japanese.

BitwiseFool 5y ago
I'd also like to point out that "invading and dominating your geographical neighbours" has actually been the norm throughout all of human civilization until very recently - and it still happens but under convoluted pretenses.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  > until very recently I do not think that custom has gone away. I seem to be at war with my next-door neighbour, over rubbish-disposal; I just don't know which neighbour, what he looks like, or what his name is (but I'm not trying to seize his property by force of arms!) People go to war with their neighbours over REAL things, like water-rights, and access to minerals and other resources. Those real things are still real. Fortunately, imperial wars don't seem to happen much these days; perhaps because great imperial powers can now transport a heavily-armed army of 200,000 across the world in a few days, squishing your imperial ambitions. But the motivation is unchanged. Perhaps the Chinese occupation of Tibet is an example? (Tibet used to be the imperial power, once upon a time - Chinese diplomats in the 14th C used to kow-tow to Tibetan kings)

MomoXenosaga 5y ago

Because WW2 was over and everyone thought WW3 was imminent. The Japanese were extremely anti communist to the point that it would make McCarthy look like a hippie.

denton-scratch 5y ago
"Never trust a hippie" ~ Johnny Rotten As a one-time hippie, I'm with Rotten on that. Very few hippes retained their principles. Lots of them had trust-funds. Lots of them are here on HN (sorry chaps; I don't mean to imply that you're all money-grubbing wretches, happy to have swapped your principles for a San Francisco developer's salary!)

Bayart 5y ago

"Emperor" is a Latin title (through Old French). Whatever martial implorations might simply not exist in Japanese. English isn't the universal language, its semantics aren't enough to describe all of humanity's reality.

dustintrex 5y ago
天皇 is literally "heavenly king", and the full Japanese WW2 war cry was 天皇陛下万歳 Tennou heika banzai, "May the Emperor live ten thousand years". So yes, the implications are pretty martial, although the Emperors themselves don't sully themselves with actual fighting.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  Yeah, and “For king and country!” Is not? I’m not sure what you are trying to say. Obviously war cries are going to be, well, martial. I don’t see anyone shouting that now, and even if they did there wouldn’t be any martial connotations.
  - dustintrex 5y ago
    GP was suggesting that emperor/天皇 may not have martial connotations in Japan, I'm pointing out that it does. As a perhaps better example, Japan's official name is now the bland State of Japan 日本国, and the old Great Japanese Empire 大日本帝国 sounds positively jingoistic. And FWIW, it's not particularly hard to find fringe groups in Tokyo that proclaim their devotion to the Emperor from black vans equipped with loudspeakers.
- Bayart 5y ago
  >So yes, the implications are pretty martial The implications of these terms are spiritual, cosmogonic and social. I don't see what's martial about calling the big guy heavenly king or to wish "ten thousand years", all the more so that the later is a Chinese stock phrase and Japan imported their governance model part and parcel. If the Australian army went to war at the cries of "Vegemite or death !", would you say Vegemite has martial implications ?
5y ago

nobody0 5y ago

I don't know why you are downvoted. But given even Unit 731 was granted immunity by the US, I guess justice ceded its place back then. It's sad to see politicians made those 'practical' decisions to protect those criminals. Let alone countless people lost their lives or suffered just because a room of people wanted wars. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731