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counter argument: to advance science we need to get more women into science. basically half the population is not pursuing science; that’s a giant untapped pool

counter argument: to advance science we need to get more women into science. basically half the population is not pursuing science; that’s a giant untapped pool. and to get more women into science, one way is to artificially seed the current system and add women who may not otherwise qualify, so that they can inspire the next generations. it’s not perfect but it’s something. that assumes we already fixed biases against women and what we need to solve now is just the fact that women are not as qualified yet

shakow 5y ago
> counter argument: to advance science we need to get more women into science Not really, just money: unfortunately, women don't have some magical sciencey abilities that make them outperform men. The thing with work is that it is sex-agnostic; whether the grunts^W PhD students collecting data, the penpushers^W profs. filling grant applications and the slaves^W postdocs computing stuff have a vagina or a penis, the whole machine will still go forward. You can e.g. compare the the US and the USSR/Russia; having the first woman in space and, generally, much more women in science, didn't make them scientifically dominate the West. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/soviet-russia-had-a-better-record-of-training-women-in-stem-than-america-does-today-180948141/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/soviet-russia-had-... https://shethoughtit.ilcml.com/essay/comrades-in-science-women-in-stem-fields-in-the-soviet-union/ https://shethoughtit.ilcml.com/essay/comrades-in-science-wom... https://www.bbc.com/news/business-39579321 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-39579321 > basically half the population is not pursuing science That would only be true if the number of tenure tracks/stipends/grants/... were increasing in parallel. The only thing happening now is that the proportion of women is increasing, not necessarily the “science output”.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  To be fair, Russian science was very productive. It didn't outcompete the west in the end, but kept up with far fewer resources. It is amazing what they achieved with what little they had compared to relatively prosperous western nations. I agree though that quotas will not increase output at all. There are limiting factors that reach far beyond gender and of course they did not have quotas, nor did they treat women better than in the west. Expectations were different but people not having to work was obviously seen as a luxury possible through productivity.
- ganzuul 5y ago
  There is a bigger differnece between men and women than there are between us and most other animals. The sexes' motivations and perspectives are almost alien to one another. Results will differ, even if the same subject is studied because all science is self-exploration.
  - shakow 5y ago
    > There is a bigger differnece between men and women than there are between us and most other animals Says someone who never opened a biology textbook. > The sexes' motivations and perspectives are almost alien to one another. Because you really think that the M/F dichotomy is a peculiarity of the human species and has not been deeply studied in many other species?
nodejs_rulez_1 5y ago
> ...add women who may not otherwise qualify... This will and already is undermining credibility of women who got into science through their own merit.
Bobylonian 5y ago
It seems a very US centric view, because in Eastern Europe there are countries with more women than men in science and education and where even women receive bigger salary(tbh, not a good configuration for countries, that need many improvements and stability at this point is stagnating), yet for some reason even there also are parrots present who locally are repeating same dumb ideas, without looking on statistics. The problem mostly is that there is no interest from women to join male dominated natural sciences - most of those that excell are loners. But, anyway - as a male with IT background I assure, that many guys would not mind, if there were even more women studying. I had probably rare chance of working in a job, where all my colegues were women, who were writing software... it would be very insulting to them and me to know that they had to study less to receive the same salary and job!!! Ideologies seems to be a necessity for young and dumb people - so they can look back on their stupid mistakes when they will grow wiser(unless they don't), but since the fail of communism in USSR there seems to be not enough effort and brainwork involved to spread these ideologies with style and feeling of selfimportance and it all just relies on making opponents dumb with never ending BS, to compensate for something else.

shakow 5y ago

> counter argument: to advance science we need to get more women into science Not really, just money: unfortunately, women don't have some magical sciencey abilities that make them outperform men. The thing with work is that it is sex-agnostic; whether the grunts^W PhD students collecting data, the penpushers^W profs. filling grant applications and the slaves^W postdocs computing stuff have a vagina or a penis, the whole machine will still go forward. You can e.g. compare the the US and the USSR/Russia; having the first woman in space and, generally, much more women in science, didn't make them scientifically dominate the West. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/soviet-russia-had-a-better-record-of-training-women-in-stem-than-america-does-today-180948141/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/soviet-russia-had-... https://shethoughtit.ilcml.com/essay/comrades-in-science-women-in-stem-fields-in-the-soviet-union/ https://shethoughtit.ilcml.com/essay/comrades-in-science-wom... https://www.bbc.com/news/business-39579321 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-39579321 > basically half the population is not pursuing science That would only be true if the number of tenure tracks/stipends/grants/... were increasing in parallel. The only thing happening now is that the proportion of women is increasing, not necessarily the “science output”.

raxxorrax 5y ago
To be fair, Russian science was very productive. It didn't outcompete the west in the end, but kept up with far fewer resources. It is amazing what they achieved with what little they had compared to relatively prosperous western nations. I agree though that quotas will not increase output at all. There are limiting factors that reach far beyond gender and of course they did not have quotas, nor did they treat women better than in the west. Expectations were different but people not having to work was obviously seen as a luxury possible through productivity.
ganzuul 5y ago
There is a bigger differnece between men and women than there are between us and most other animals. The sexes' motivations and perspectives are almost alien to one another. Results will differ, even if the same subject is studied because all science is self-exploration.
- shakow 5y ago
  > There is a bigger differnece between men and women than there are between us and most other animals Says someone who never opened a biology textbook. > The sexes' motivations and perspectives are almost alien to one another. Because you really think that the M/F dichotomy is a peculiarity of the human species and has not been deeply studied in many other species?

nodejs_rulez_1 5y ago

> ...add women who may not otherwise qualify... This will and already is undermining credibility of women who got into science through their own merit.

Bobylonian 5y ago

It seems a very US centric view, because in Eastern Europe there are countries with more women than men in science and education and where even women receive bigger salary(tbh, not a good configuration for countries, that need many improvements and stability at this point is stagnating), yet for some reason even there also are parrots present who locally are repeating same dumb ideas, without looking on statistics. The problem mostly is that there is no interest from women to join male dominated natural sciences - most of those that excell are loners. But, anyway - as a male with IT background I assure, that many guys would not mind, if there were even more women studying. I had probably rare chance of working in a job, where all my colegues were women, who were writing software... it would be very insulting to them and me to know that they had to study less to receive the same salary and job!!! Ideologies seems to be a necessity for young and dumb people - so they can look back on their stupid mistakes when they will grow wiser(unless they don't), but since the fail of communism in USSR there seems to be not enough effort and brainwork involved to spread these ideologies with style and feeling of selfimportance and it all just relies on making opponents dumb with never ending BS, to compensate for something else.