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JPMorgan's Dimon blasts Bitcoin as 'worthless', due for regulation
- naveen99 5y agoThe people who benefit from bitcoin and who have a usecase for bitcoin (self custody of billions) are beyond regulation.
- da_big_ghey 5y agoI am not always crypto advocate but how can any person take this seriously, what a massive conflict of interest we have here. If I ran some large business I probably also would say some potential competitor was worthless and due for regulation. Maybe bitcoin is not a competitor, but maybe it is, and maybe some other "fintech" or "defi" is a future competitor, if Dimon tar Bitcoin as a bad scam tech now and get these regulations he is stopping future competition before it becomes any problem.
- pm90 5y agoWhy is it a conflict of interest? He’s not running the SEC.
- nvr219 5y agoBecause it's in JPMorgan's best interest to not have bitcoin be a thing.
- rogerkirkness 5y agoThe real question is who Coinbase does their fiat banking with...
- burnished 5y agoHow do you figure? I've heard this before but I don't get it. If bitcoin is to be treated like currency, well, that would be in their wheelhouse right? And if bitcoin is to be treated as a speculative asset, that would also be in their wheelhouse? My interpretation is that bitcoin is not "for the man", and therefor "the man" will not like or want it. But "the man" would trade in gilded gizzards if that would make them money. What am I missing?
- errantmind 5y agoIf BTC does well, other cryptocurrencies will likely do well, which means DeFi will do well, which presumably means less people needing JPMorgan as an intermediary.
- burnished 5y agoCan you explain that in smaller words, with more verbs? I'm also under the impression that a big smart contract went tits up recently and the establishment resorted to legal threats due to a huge loss of money which isn't confidence inspiring. But more to the point, what would stop JPMorgan from getting in on the game if there was money to be made?
- errantmind 5y agoNothing will stop JPMorgan from getting into the game who are trying to middleman / rent-seek from end users desiring a bridge from traditional finance to DeFi. However, as DeFi matures and new generations of users become accustomed to working directly with the technology, the role of the rent-seekers is systemically eliminated. Long-term, it is in TradFi's best interested to oppose the emergence of DeFi. I predict they will use common and tired arguments to push for strong government regulations similar to those on TradFi, to encumber it and add to their own value-prop. Also, some smart contracts can and will implode on occasion and that is fine. DeFi returns power (and responsibility) to the users, but as they are not used to having this level of responsibility there are bound to be losses here and there due to technical incompetence.
- ArchD 5y ago"The man" wants his pound of flesh for as many financial transactions in the economy as possible, extracting various kinds of fees. Permissionless public-ledger cryptocurrencies cut out the priviledged middlemen.
- tangerine_beet 5y agoDecentralized finance, in theory at least, undermines their power to determine the rules of the game: the decentralized nature of DeFi potentially dimishes the ability of financial lobbyists and the revolving door to influence regulation and policy. It also enables the lightning-fast rise of what would be serious competitors for JPM's customers. That's why I think that, if DeFi were to actually get big enough, companies like JPM would for a change start crying for MORE regulation. All in the name of protecting easily-swindled retail investors, of course.
- gruez 5y agoPresumably because a decentralized finance system would strip incumbents like JPMorgan of their advantage (eg. regulatory capture).
- pm90 5y agoThen his attempts to stop crypto seem perfectly logical. Where’s the conflict?
- okwubodu 5y agoHis opinion on things his job depends on failing should be taken with a grain of salt. Like a horse drawn carriage salesmen telling you cars are useless.
- EugeneG 5y agoThe guy is 65, has a net worth of $2bn. I genuinely don't think he gives a crap about bad mouthing bitcoin to save himself. He's won the game. At this point he's just trying to be credible and honest. There are crypto lovers who hear what he says, it hurts their emotions, so they rationalize his words as some sort of nefarious plot to subvert public opinion! But the explanation is simpler, it's just what he thinks.
- randomhodler84 5y agoIt’s not a security. Bitcoin makes banks obsolete. Private Bankers and Central Bankers are quaking in their boots over Bitcoin. It undoes their damage. They are not longer needed.
- aynyc 5y agoBecause JPM is a middleman, crypto removes middle man. Like all the car dealerships use legal means to prevent Tesla to sell cars directly to consumers without local shops.
- tmcw 5y agoHave you seen Coinbase’s margins? They’re taking a bigger cut than any traditional financial actor, and the similar pricing from shops like Gemini suggest that the rest of the crypto industry is, also, rife with middlemen.
- everfree 5y agoThose are middlemen for fiat-to-crypto transactions. No middlemen are needed for crypto-to-crypto transactions like with fiat-to-fiat transactions, with the exception of physical cash.
- fieldcny 5y agoThat’s not true the miners middle men. You gotta pay to get your transaction executed, the miners take that. Right now transactions are heavily subsidized by the mining reward, at some point there will no longer be a mining reward so the whole thing will be only supported by transaction fees, and they are likely to be spectacular, even today with the low transaction volumes, actual transactions can sit in the mempool for quite some time before getting executed unless you pony up fees.
- fieldcny 5y agoThose margins are absolutely incredible, Goldmanesque. Heck it it were Goldman or JP Morgan running it, you have the CEOs dragged in front of congress being asked why they are robbing poor old grandma while she’s just trying to say trade cryptos
- EugeneG 5y agoIt's not about fear of competition. Crypto doesn't remove the middle man. There are just other middlemen, but JPM also is not stupid and will figure out how to compete in this space. The new middlemen are folks like Coinbase, the other exchanges, middlemen like PayPal that are built on top of middlemen like Paxos. Regular people aren't going to using private keys to send money (where a typo leads to permanent loss) anymore than regular people are going to be coding in assembly on their machine to do addition and subtraction. If there's really value in bitcoin and it becomes a thing, JPM will figure out how to help. Why? Because they are good at what they do, they have tons of clients and relationships. They add real tangible value to their clients. If middleman means "tangible value" then yeah, they're a middleman. JPM figured it out with currency markets, stock markets, bond markets, commodity markets, credit markets, equity derivatives - they figured it out with big institutional clients, with retail clients - they figured it out in simple products (buy EURUSD) and complex products (buy a 5 year forward knock out call option on EURUSD, contingent on SPX, quanto into Yen). I'm sure they'll figure it out for digital assets - if it truly becomes a market worth entering. In the meantime, crypto has yet to add any real world value. What sane person takes a vacation to Tokyo and does anything other than use their Chase-issued Visa card (now available on your iPhone!) to buy stuff? Are you going to go there and pay with your bitcoin? Ridiculous. And guess what, the credit card route works instantly and it costs nearly nothing. Where are the real use cases for crypto? Digital gold? Maybe. Weird trading card things, ok maybe. But real ones? Maybe they will come, but also maybe not... When internet/BBS came out to real people in the mid 1980s, even then (even then!), it was obvious that this was huge and had real value. People communicated, played games, etc. In the 1950s, business used computer to automate processes. We didn't need to wait until 1995 to figure out the internet (or computers) would eventually be huge. But with crypto, 10 years later, and nobody who actually understands traditional finance can articulate where crypto is better/faster/easier/cheaper, or any other use case. Maybe it will come, but I haven't heard it!
- bpodgursky 5y agoCrypto is so worthless that we need to heavily regulate it to make sure it does not become too valuable.
- frankbreetz 5y agoI think heavily regulated before many people invest there retirement accounts and are then "the last fools in" and are left with nothing. Wouldn't things have been better for the middle class if the real estate industry was more heavily regulated in 2008?
- medo-bear 5y agomaybe jpmorgan and friends are also due for some regulation :)
- social_quotient 5y agoInteresting how often they break the rules, unrelated to crypto https://www.corporatecomplianceinsights.com/banks-15b-in-fines-in-2020/ https://www.corporatecomplianceinsights.com/banks-15b-in-fin... https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/banks-have-been-fined-a-staggering-243-billion-since-the-financial-crisis-2018-02-20 https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/banks-have-been-fined-...
- EugeneG 5y agoJPMorgan and friends are so hyperregulated they literally have regulators who sit in their offices, company officers who are required to report to regulators on a whim, regular scheduled updates with regulators, audits, etc. etc. there is probably no industry more regulated than finance.
- medo-bear 5y agomy comment was downvoted so fast i thought i accidently posted on jpmorgan's chat board :)
- atatatat 5y agoIt's pretty important to understand the difference between compliance regulation, and effective regulation. We rarely get effective regulation — most often, it's simply hoops to jump through that new entrants and smaller competitors will be unevenly burdened by the resource cost of complying. Barriers to entry. Facebook wants social media network regulations, and Amazon (now!, very rich) wants taxes on online purchases — and now cannabis.
- gautamcgoel 5y agoI recall that at the start of 2020, people were posting predictions for the next decade, and one guy predicted Bitcoin would reach $100k. In fact, he predicted it would reach $100k by the end of the year, IIRC. I take the opposite view; crypto mania will fizzle out in the next few years, leading to a corresponding decline in BTC and ETH prices. People bought crypto without belief in its intrinsic value or any intention of using it to buy goods, but rather because they hoped it's price would increase - the very definition of speculation.
- whatanorigtht 5y agoOh wow! A prediction that bitcoin will go to zero! What an original thought!
- x3sphere 5y agoI mean that’s what happened in 2017-2018 yet again we are repeating the same bubble. I guess these crazy run ups will end at some point but I see no indication this will be the last.
- mettamage 5y agoI don’t think it will be. I talked to a person that valuates art. When I heard her talk, I felt that cryptocurrency valuation had a lot in common with it. Where art is valued on: - Rarity - Popularity of artist - Perceived craftsmanship then - Perceived craftmanship now - Emotional elicitation (indirectly, i.e. if we didn’t “like” or “felt” something through art it wouldn’t hold value, probably). Now cryptocurrencies: - Rarity - Popularity - Innovativeness of idea at the time - Innovativeness of idea now - The ideology that a certain coin or cryptocurrencies as a whole represent (e.g. if it didn’t have an anarchistic and innovative bend then it would be worth a lot less) - To a small extent: its utility (e.g. the unbanked using it) Obviously I am handwaving and simplifying. My point: they are more similar than you think.
- mettamage 5y agoIt’s not just speculation. It’s experimentation as well. The crypto community has been really playful in how they use and define money. There are wuite a few lessons that we have learned as a society that otherwise wouldn’t be so salient. Things like: What is trust? Should we put our trust in technology instead of people? Can we build a blockchain vm? Can you censor blockchain technology? Or will people find ways around it? Bitcoin will always hold some lower bound value, because there will always be 2.1 million willing to use $10 to see what happens. Governments aren’t playful, people are. Playfulness can lead to recklessness and pain. It can also lead to artistic expression and innovation. IMO with cryptocurrencies, you see both.
- m0zg 5y agoIf Jamie doesn't like it, I like it even more. At a first approximation, whatever is bad for JPMorgans and Goldman Sachs' of the world, has a high probability of being good for the rest of us.
- robotsteve2 5y agoYou need more than a first approximation.
- EugeneG 5y agoAnd it's a crappy first approximation at that! "Banks are evil because I heard that banks are evil and I don't really understand what they do."
- wanderinghogan 5y agoAt this point I am interested in pretty much anyone's perspective other than his. He bashes crypto, he makes money, his company builds something using crypto, he makes money. Just like his bank he is too big to fail and serves no one's interest but his own.
- paulpauper 5y agoHis opinions are overrated imho.I don't think bitcoin will be worthless but I think there are far better investments though.
- caymanjim 5y agoHe may be uninformed or outright wrong about Bitcoin, but he runs the largest investment bank in the world. A whole lot of people care what he thinks about financial matters, and even if he's wrong about Bitcoin, the fact that he holds that opinion is important in itself.
- SparkyMcUnicorn 5y agoI don't share this viewpoint. Politicians and bankers (almost all on the older side) have no clue what they're talking about when it comes to technology, and come to terrible conclusions all the time.
- boplicity 5y agoSeveral years ago, the discussion around cryptocurrency often centered on the valuable uses it could have. Now that it's been around for quite some time, how are people using it, in terms of useful functionality? I know very little about the subject, but my initial thoughts lead to things like ransonware payments, money laundering, etc. Certainly there are other useful ways that people regularly use cryptocurrency. What are they?
- randomhodler84 5y agoInternational remittance without needing to pay the traditional gatekeepers a cut.
- bhouston 5y agoAKA Money laundering and tax avoidance.
- randomhodler84 5y agoThere are millions paying family in their home countries, it is a significant slice of local GDP in some ways places. You want to throw a straw man to make this look sketchy. I’m sorry but you are many many years too late for such antics.
- fieldcny 5y agoI’m not sure I understand your issue with the previous comment, just because they are sending it to family at home doesn’t mean they are doing it in a lawful way or even that this is desirable or “good” economic behavior.
- kyleee 5y agoIs it for you to decide if it's good or desireable for me to remit money to relatives in a different country?
- 5y ago
- agumonkey 5y agoThe timing of news is really funny. The 'negative news on bull run, positive news on crash' legend seems strong.
- paulpauper 5y ago"due for regulation" It's already very , very heavily regulated. I remember in 2010 trading on etrade or ameritrade was a simple as filling out the form and wiring money, but with cryptooo there are tons of security checks, ID checks, verification, screening, blaocchain analysis to do anything.
- fieldcny 5y agoI can tell you haven’t worked in a regulated industry, there is almost no regulation. Most of the stuff you list is simple stuff done to meet KYC rules that most exchanges were initially delinquent in implementing and only did so when it was pointed out the obvious liability they were taking on not implementing them. For regulated securities products there are all sort of approvals needed from the product itself to the marketing materials. There are rules about suitability of the product, transparency over commissions and fees, licensing and registration of market participants, market data rules. That’s all just the tip of the iceberg.
- paulpauper 5y agothis does not refute my personal experience. took me 3 days to trade on ameritrade, and I could withdraw $ in days too. Coinbase req.photo ID tons of other stuff to withdraw crypto. way different. >Most of the stuff you list is simple stuff done to meet KYC rules that most exchanges were initially delinquent in implementing and only did so when it was pointed out the obvious liability they were taking on not implementing them. That is my point. they were. not anymore.
- greesil 5y agoIt clearly wasn't worthless for the early adopters.
- bla15e 5y agoBitcoin blasts JPMorgan's Dimon as 'worthless', due for regulation
- mnaei 5y agoHere is one perspective on Bitcion: In a world where abundance is abundant (every day we have more cash, cars, etc..) scarcity by itself could manifest value. As per law of supply and demand.
- craigc 5y agoGotta love when the Hacker News crowd sides with Wall Street kingpin Jamie Dimon just to own Bitcoin. This guy became a billionaire thanks to taxpayer subsidized bailouts after the 2008 crisis while regular people lost their homes, and while I don’t know that it is proven, it is very likely he was personally involved with or at the very least aware about the subprime mortgage derivative schemes that set off the entire thing.
- spinchange 5y agoActual misinformation. Dimon's bank was one of the strongest ones and wasn't making or wholesaling subprime mortgages. It was able to acquire Bear Stearns for less than the value of Bear's real estate owned.
- craigc 5y agoMisinformation? What do you mean? One of the strongest ones? You mean they didn’t lose a lot of money as a result of the collapse? That is exactly my point. They were financing the lenders and offloading their own bad securities in secret while not touching the ones held by their OWN CUSTOMERS. Aka they KNEW the whole thing was a scam and knew the whole thing was going to implode and didn’t want to be caught holding the bag when it did. They still got bailed out along with everyone else. Here are a couple sources if you are curious: - https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/the-9-billion-witness-meet-jpmorgan-chases-worst-nightmare-242414/ https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/the-9-bi... - https://thedailybanter.com/2015/06/jp-morgan-ceo-who-stole-billions-from-taxpayers-now-a-billionaire/ https://thedailybanter.com/2015/06/jp-morgan-ceo-who-stole-b...
- spinchange 5y agoI mean that you're literally playing fast loose with facts and are incorrect. If you are curious.
- Ice_cream_suit 5y agoBitcoin is important to a global industry worth around 2.8 trillion USD. "A comparatively simple crime-economic model, constructed from readily available international databases, closely predicts a range of such expert assessments, and appears to offer a framework for determining and monitoring the size of money laundering flows around the world. Further research is required to complete the model, but the nature of that research is made clear, and it appears that existing data sources are likely to be adequate. Initial output from the model suggests a global money laundering total of $2.85 trillion per year, heavily concentrated in Europe and North America." http://www.johnwalkercrimetrendsanalysis.com.au/ML%20method.htm http://www.johnwalkercrimetrendsanalysis.com.au/ML%20method....
- 1ark 5y agoRelevant history: "Dimon's many takes on Bitcoin" https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/9t140h/jamie_dimons_many_takes_on_bitcoin/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/9t140h/jami... https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jamie-dimons-own-bank-cryptocurrency-073203531.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/jamie-dimons-own-bank-cryptoc... https://www.businessinsider.com/jpmorgan-financial-advisors-crypto-bitcoin-products-retail-wealth-management-2021-7?IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/jpmorgan-financial-advisors-...