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That's a very unnuanced, MSM kind of take. As a Chinese, I am very disappointed at the absolutely one-dimensional analyses of western China watchers. Their take

That's a very unnuanced, MSM kind of take. As a Chinese, I am very disappointed at the absolutely one-dimensional analyses of western China watchers. Their takes are rarely accurate, often full of ideological bias, and they don't help me understand China better at all.

TheSmiddy 5y ago
It would be a hell of a lot easier for the west to understand China if China would let their citizens interact with the wider internet.
- FooBarWidget 5y ago
  That isn't my experience. There are in fact quite a lot of Chinese people that jump over the firewall. Most of the time, their opinions are quite different from the mainstream western perspective. But when they voice such opinions on western platforms, they tend to be labelled as shills. Only negative, dissenting opinions about China are accepted. I am in favor of relaxing the firewall. Yet I hold no illusions about that yielding a better outcome when it comes to inter-cultural understanding: it think all in all it's just going to lead to more flamewars.
- theteapot 5y ago
  Check out quora.com, It must be whitelist or something ... it's a real melting pot ...
chaostheory 5y ago
And your comment isn't "one dimensional" and "unnuanced"? As a fellow Chinese person, it's pretty accurate. Deng Xiaoping deserves the credit for modern China's economy. China was slowly but surely opening up and slowing becoming decentralized for efficiency, and it was a moderate rule by committee with term limits vs a one man dictatorship for life that's veering into a centralized economic planning disaster reminiscent of Mao. He is destroying China, one industry at a time. I can understand your "patriotism" if you're commenting from the mainland. Not so much if you're writing from elsewhere.
- FooBarWidget 5y ago
  I am in fact not writing from the mainland. The insinuation that the only way I can have a different opinion, is because I am forced, is part of my critique: that western views of China are entirely unrealistic and overly warped by biases and preconceived notions that people are unwilling to let go. If you want elaborate, nuanced comments from me, check my commenting history, such as this lengthy thread I wrote 2 weeks ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28632820 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28632820 I am sorry if I don't turn every one of my comment into an essay. As for Deng Xiao Ping, I am in agreement with dirtyid's comment.
  - chaostheory 5y ago
    > The insinuation that the only way I can have a different opinion, is because I am forced, is part of my critique China doesn't have freedom of speech. Chinese citizens can be punished for posting innocuous things such as a cartoon bear who loves honey, so it's not a stretch to assume that you will write differently when inside the mainland vs outside of the mainland.
    - FooBarWidget 5y ago
      Censorship exists, but that is not at all the same thing as forcing people to have a certain opinion. This Harvard paper explains that, instead, censorship's role is to silence movements. Pro-government posts are censored when they have the potential to go viral. Anti-government posts that don't go viral, aren't censored. "How Censorship in China Allows Government Criticism but Silences Collective Expression" https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/how-censorship-china-allows-government-criticism-silences-collective-expression https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/how-censorship-china-... Furthermore, censorship exists simultaneously with government responsiveness. That is, they actively monitor social media for grievances and they actively address these grievances (as in actually addressing, not arresting people for arresting). Nowadays social media is one of the major channels for government feedback. New law proposals are regularly formed based on mass complaints on social media (which may or may not also end up getting censored). This is a relatively new thing, developed in the past 15 years or so. Punishments are not that common. You'd have to reach Julian Assange level for that to happen. Censoring without any further consequences is the norm.
ailun 5y ago
Then you aren't reading the right "China-watchers". Some names from a quick review of my Twitter feed to check out if you're actually interested: Kevin Tellier, Peter Hessler, Xifan Yang, Michael Pettis, Manya Koetse, Sabina Knight, Amy Qin, Keith Bradsher, Yuen Yuen Ang, Chaoyang Trap (podcast), Matthew Casey, Jonathan Cheng, Yiling Liu, US-China Perception Monitor, Paper Republic, China Media Project. There are tons more that I'm leaving out because I don't feel like searching for them. Enjoy. Or just continue to dismiss all Western journalism because you'd rather do that than look for quality.
- FooBarWidget 5y ago
  I am in fact following a couple of the people you mentioned. The critique isn't that no good China watchers exist. It's that most of them are like Gordon Chang instead of Kevin Tellier. I don't see the need for you to resort to confrontational hyperbolic strawmans. The fact that good China watchers are a small minority, is very bad for western understanding of China, and thus very bad for rational policy making that actually addresses issues rather than stirring up emotions or manufacturing consent for a war. This isn't just my own opinion; Kishore Mahbubani, ex-Singapore diplomat, ex-UN security council head, has spoken extensively about this problem.
  - ailun 5y ago
    Sure, the quality of mainstream news is always, and has always been, a problem. More education and improvement in understanding is always a good thing. But you're not making any interesting points there, and you have no way to quantify that "most of them are like Gordon Chang". And the problem I see is that people have a tendency to find poor sources of information and use them to dismiss entire categories of information and positions. By the way, your statement was about "Western China watchers," not some or even most. You may not have meant it that way, but that's how you said it.
    - FooBarWidget 5y ago
      Okay fine. Although I did mention MSM.

TheSmiddy 5y ago

It would be a hell of a lot easier for the west to understand China if China would let their citizens interact with the wider internet.

FooBarWidget 5y ago
That isn't my experience. There are in fact quite a lot of Chinese people that jump over the firewall. Most of the time, their opinions are quite different from the mainstream western perspective. But when they voice such opinions on western platforms, they tend to be labelled as shills. Only negative, dissenting opinions about China are accepted. I am in favor of relaxing the firewall. Yet I hold no illusions about that yielding a better outcome when it comes to inter-cultural understanding: it think all in all it's just going to lead to more flamewars.
theteapot 5y ago
Check out quora.com, It must be whitelist or something ... it's a real melting pot ...

chaostheory 5y ago

And your comment isn't "one dimensional" and "unnuanced"? As a fellow Chinese person, it's pretty accurate. Deng Xiaoping deserves the credit for modern China's economy. China was slowly but surely opening up and slowing becoming decentralized for efficiency, and it was a moderate rule by committee with term limits vs a one man dictatorship for life that's veering into a centralized economic planning disaster reminiscent of Mao. He is destroying China, one industry at a time. I can understand your "patriotism" if you're commenting from the mainland. Not so much if you're writing from elsewhere.

FooBarWidget 5y ago
I am in fact not writing from the mainland. The insinuation that the only way I can have a different opinion, is because I am forced, is part of my critique: that western views of China are entirely unrealistic and overly warped by biases and preconceived notions that people are unwilling to let go. If you want elaborate, nuanced comments from me, check my commenting history, such as this lengthy thread I wrote 2 weeks ago. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28632820 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28632820 I am sorry if I don't turn every one of my comment into an essay. As for Deng Xiao Ping, I am in agreement with dirtyid's comment.
- chaostheory 5y ago
  > The insinuation that the only way I can have a different opinion, is because I am forced, is part of my critique China doesn't have freedom of speech. Chinese citizens can be punished for posting innocuous things such as a cartoon bear who loves honey, so it's not a stretch to assume that you will write differently when inside the mainland vs outside of the mainland.
  - FooBarWidget 5y ago
    Censorship exists, but that is not at all the same thing as forcing people to have a certain opinion. This Harvard paper explains that, instead, censorship's role is to silence movements. Pro-government posts are censored when they have the potential to go viral. Anti-government posts that don't go viral, aren't censored. "How Censorship in China Allows Government Criticism but Silences Collective Expression" https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/how-censorship-china-allows-government-criticism-silences-collective-expression https://gking.harvard.edu/publications/how-censorship-china-... Furthermore, censorship exists simultaneously with government responsiveness. That is, they actively monitor social media for grievances and they actively address these grievances (as in actually addressing, not arresting people for arresting). Nowadays social media is one of the major channels for government feedback. New law proposals are regularly formed based on mass complaints on social media (which may or may not also end up getting censored). This is a relatively new thing, developed in the past 15 years or so. Punishments are not that common. You'd have to reach Julian Assange level for that to happen. Censoring without any further consequences is the norm.

ailun 5y ago

Then you aren't reading the right "China-watchers". Some names from a quick review of my Twitter feed to check out if you're actually interested: Kevin Tellier, Peter Hessler, Xifan Yang, Michael Pettis, Manya Koetse, Sabina Knight, Amy Qin, Keith Bradsher, Yuen Yuen Ang, Chaoyang Trap (podcast), Matthew Casey, Jonathan Cheng, Yiling Liu, US-China Perception Monitor, Paper Republic, China Media Project. There are tons more that I'm leaving out because I don't feel like searching for them. Enjoy. Or just continue to dismiss all Western journalism because you'd rather do that than look for quality.

FooBarWidget 5y ago
I am in fact following a couple of the people you mentioned. The critique isn't that no good China watchers exist. It's that most of them are like Gordon Chang instead of Kevin Tellier. I don't see the need for you to resort to confrontational hyperbolic strawmans. The fact that good China watchers are a small minority, is very bad for western understanding of China, and thus very bad for rational policy making that actually addresses issues rather than stirring up emotions or manufacturing consent for a war. This isn't just my own opinion; Kishore Mahbubani, ex-Singapore diplomat, ex-UN security council head, has spoken extensively about this problem.
- ailun 5y ago
  Sure, the quality of mainstream news is always, and has always been, a problem. More education and improvement in understanding is always a good thing. But you're not making any interesting points there, and you have no way to quantify that "most of them are like Gordon Chang". And the problem I see is that people have a tendency to find poor sources of information and use them to dismiss entire categories of information and positions. By the way, your statement was about "Western China watchers," not some or even most. You may not have meant it that way, but that's how you said it.
  - FooBarWidget 5y ago
    Okay fine. Although I did mention MSM.