5 ms·

Given the Germany stupid move to get rid of nuclear (in favor of coal[1], as it turned out), not sure if it will support this decision. And nowadays they are de

by xvilka 5y ago

Given the Germany stupid move to get rid of nuclear (in favor of coal[1], as it turned out), not sure if it will support this decision. And nowadays they are dependent from one country's gas... [1] https://www.wired.com/story/germany-rejected-nuclear-power-and-deadly-emissions-spiked/ https://www.wired.com/story/germany-rejected-nuclear-power-a...

llampx 5y ago
I still see "Atomkraft? Nein, danke!" stickers here and there and am sad at the ignorance displayed by the people who sport them.
- rad_gruchalski 5y ago
  Let’s see if they still sport these stickers after the coming winter…
  - llampx 5y ago
    You underestimate the masochism of the average German, or at least the type to have such a sticker.
    - rad_gruchalski 5y ago
      I live in Germany, I have seen a lot…
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    Well maybe Germans could just vote to freeze their energy prices, like Berliners voted to freeze their rents. /s
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      Or buy the power plants and then sell the power for cheap...
      - rad_gruchalski 5y ago
        They will simply buy electricity from Poland (coal) or France (nuclear) it they need more cheaper.
        petre 5y ago
        If Poland or France have cheap electricity to dispose of, which isn't the case as of this winter.
    - rad_gruchalski 5y ago
      Ha, that’s a good one. Considering the plans of the new gov, this is the new normal in Germany and it will get even more expensive. I’m looking forward to diesel at €2.10/l, e5 at €2.50/l, heating oil at €110/100l and electricity prices x3. What a time to be alive.
- lamp987 5y ago
  Ironically its the Greens. One would think theyre false flag paid by coal and petrol corporations.
  - blibble 5y ago
    with their anti-nuclear stance the Greens have likely done more damage to the climate than the conservative parties...
- stefantalpalaru 5y ago
  > I still see "Atomkraft? Nein, danke!" stickers here and there and am sad at the ignorance displayed by the people who sport them. https://www.thelocal.de/20160520/german-nuclear-plant-pumped-radioactive-waste-into-air/ https://www.thelocal.de/20160520/german-nuclear-plant-pumped... : «the plant used the cover of the Chernobyl – which had released a cloud of radioactive waste over western Europe – to pump their own waste into the atmosphere, believing no one would notice “It was done intentionally,” Schollmeyer said. “We had problems at the plant and I was present at a few of the meetings.” The problems related to balls of radioactive fuel getting stuck in the plant's pipework. “Some clever dick suggested we clean out the pipework by pumping helium through it. He thought that no one would notice because of the Chernobyl cloud.”» https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernkraftwerk_THTR-300#Emission_radioaktiver_Aerosole_am_4._Mai_1986_unmittelbar_nach_dem_Tschernobyl-Unfall https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernkraftwerk_THTR-300#Emissio... : «The emissions from the THTR were initially not noticed. However, an anonymous informant from the workforce of the THTR-300 informed supervisory authorities and environmental associations about a hidden radioactive emission on May 4, 1986.» «Only when an unusually high concentration of 233Pa was detected in the exhaust air of the THTR-300 from the chimney, which could not come from Chernobyl but only from the thorium of broken fuel elements of the THTR-300, it gradually became clear that there must have been significant radioactive emissions from the THTR-300 into the environment.»
foepys 5y ago
France imports a lot of gas generated power from Germany over the course of the year. Without Germany's readily available gas turbines, France wouldn't be able to stabilize their net. Same the other way around where Germany relies on France's almost always available nuclear power.
- pjerem 5y ago
  Also, we (the French) made a stupid move by closing the Fessenheim power plant although it have passed all the security checks and could have continue to work for one or more decades.
  - onli 5y ago
    That's not even remotely true. Fessenheim was a huge security risk and would not have passed any security checks in a country not as fanatically pro-nuclear as France. See https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Pannen-AKW-Fessenheim-geht-vom-Netz-article21594055.html https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Pannen-AKW-Fessenheim-geht-vom-N...: > Fessenheim liegt in einem Erdbebengebiet, das Kraftwerk ist gegen einen Flugzeugabsturz oder Anschlag unzureichend geschützt. Zudem kam es immer wieder zu Pannen. That says: It was in an seismic active zone, unprotected against plane crashes or terror attacks. There also were a bunch of accidents. Those old reactor designs weren't safe.
    - orwin 5y ago
      > That's not even remotely true. It is though. For CEA experts at least. And considering what those experts did to the EPR, i'm pretty sure they are not as "pro-edf" or "pro-nuclear" as the Green tell they are. > Fessenheim was a huge security risk and would not have passed any security checks in a country not as fanatically pro-nuclear as France. You're dissing CEA engineers and physicists here. > That says: It was in an seismic active zone This reason is bullshit. Fessenhein is a PWR reactor, unless you have something like 7 on the Richter scale, the reactor will likely just hold. On a 7, you have leakage risks, and maybe on a nine you'll get a meltdown? Do you think its likely to get a 7 or more there? > unprotected against plane crashes or terror attacks. True, plane crashes are not an issue though, unless you know exactly where the core or the pool is (one is a much much bigger issue than the other obviously). And to engage security mesures you need to either: push a big button, or cut electricity. Once the grid is down, there is no way to make the core explode, and if you take more than 30 minutes to put a bomb on it, it probably won't even meltdown. To reengage the reactor you need knowledge, so a sabotage is still possible. > There also were a bunch of accidents. True, and bad ones. Hiring contractors is good for us, earning that much doing pretty much nothing, but ultimately bad for the company, especially when you need to keep competency at a high level. Not the only nuclear plant in France where incompetency reigns from what i heard. > Those old reactor designs weren't safe. Untrue, but true for fessenheim. No commercial French reactor active right now are as unsafe as let's say Fukushima, because our Gen2 were that much better (as were the US's). Not as well designed as CANDUC type, but PWR are stable and do have passive protection against a chain reaction or a leak. Also, you can just move the core out and voila, no more nuclear reaction. Anyway. The second wave was improved upon "thanks" to the TMI incident, and even older reactors got better passive risk reduction upgrades and better detection. But, Fessenheim did had a lot of troubles (and by troubles, i mean incidents from human origin), and while the cuve could probably last another 30 to 40 years, the PWR tech also have big wear and tear effect on surrounding equipements. The CEA accounted for this in their rapport, and precognized a long downtime to put thing in order.
rusk 5y ago
Well Germany has access to lots of cheap coal so not so much stupid as teutonically pragmatic. Who knows might have been the coal lobbyists in this campaign as much as environmentalists
stkdump 5y ago
The numbers are public record. https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/156695/umfrage/brutto-stromerzeugung-in-deutschland-nach-energietraegern-seit-2007/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/156695/umfrag... There is no huge spike. And since the decision to shut down the nuclear plants, also coal has decreased massively, even more dramatically than nuclear.
- itzprime 5y ago
  Wind wasn't blowing the last few months, coal is back on top. https://www.dw.com/en/germany-coal-tops-wind-as-primary-electricity-source/a-59168105 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-coal-tops-wind-as-primary-elec...

by xvilka 5y ago

llampx 5y ago

I still see "Atomkraft? Nein, danke!" stickers here and there and am sad at the ignorance displayed by the people who sport them.

rad_gruchalski 5y ago
Let’s see if they still sport these stickers after the coming winter…
- llampx 5y ago
  You underestimate the masochism of the average German, or at least the type to have such a sticker.
  - rad_gruchalski 5y ago
    I live in Germany, I have seen a lot…
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  Well maybe Germans could just vote to freeze their energy prices, like Berliners voted to freeze their rents. /s
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    Or buy the power plants and then sell the power for cheap...
    - rad_gruchalski 5y ago
      They will simply buy electricity from Poland (coal) or France (nuclear) it they need more cheaper.
      - petre 5y ago
        If Poland or France have cheap electricity to dispose of, which isn't the case as of this winter.
  - rad_gruchalski 5y ago
    Ha, that’s a good one. Considering the plans of the new gov, this is the new normal in Germany and it will get even more expensive. I’m looking forward to diesel at €2.10/l, e5 at €2.50/l, heating oil at €110/100l and electricity prices x3. What a time to be alive.
lamp987 5y ago
Ironically its the Greens. One would think theyre false flag paid by coal and petrol corporations.
- blibble 5y ago
  with their anti-nuclear stance the Greens have likely done more damage to the climate than the conservative parties...
stefantalpalaru 5y ago
> I still see "Atomkraft? Nein, danke!" stickers here and there and am sad at the ignorance displayed by the people who sport them. https://www.thelocal.de/20160520/german-nuclear-plant-pumped-radioactive-waste-into-air/ https://www.thelocal.de/20160520/german-nuclear-plant-pumped... : «the plant used the cover of the Chernobyl – which had released a cloud of radioactive waste over western Europe – to pump their own waste into the atmosphere, believing no one would notice “It was done intentionally,” Schollmeyer said. “We had problems at the plant and I was present at a few of the meetings.” The problems related to balls of radioactive fuel getting stuck in the plant's pipework. “Some clever dick suggested we clean out the pipework by pumping helium through it. He thought that no one would notice because of the Chernobyl cloud.”» https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernkraftwerk_THTR-300#Emission_radioaktiver_Aerosole_am_4._Mai_1986_unmittelbar_nach_dem_Tschernobyl-Unfall https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernkraftwerk_THTR-300#Emissio... : «The emissions from the THTR were initially not noticed. However, an anonymous informant from the workforce of the THTR-300 informed supervisory authorities and environmental associations about a hidden radioactive emission on May 4, 1986.» «Only when an unusually high concentration of 233Pa was detected in the exhaust air of the THTR-300 from the chimney, which could not come from Chernobyl but only from the thorium of broken fuel elements of the THTR-300, it gradually became clear that there must have been significant radioactive emissions from the THTR-300 into the environment.»

foepys 5y ago

France imports a lot of gas generated power from Germany over the course of the year. Without Germany's readily available gas turbines, France wouldn't be able to stabilize their net. Same the other way around where Germany relies on France's almost always available nuclear power.

pjerem 5y ago
Also, we (the French) made a stupid move by closing the Fessenheim power plant although it have passed all the security checks and could have continue to work for one or more decades.
- onli 5y ago
  That's not even remotely true. Fessenheim was a huge security risk and would not have passed any security checks in a country not as fanatically pro-nuclear as France. See https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Pannen-AKW-Fessenheim-geht-vom-Netz-article21594055.html https://www.n-tv.de/politik/Pannen-AKW-Fessenheim-geht-vom-N...: > Fessenheim liegt in einem Erdbebengebiet, das Kraftwerk ist gegen einen Flugzeugabsturz oder Anschlag unzureichend geschützt. Zudem kam es immer wieder zu Pannen. That says: It was in an seismic active zone, unprotected against plane crashes or terror attacks. There also were a bunch of accidents. Those old reactor designs weren't safe.
  - orwin 5y ago
    > That's not even remotely true. It is though. For CEA experts at least. And considering what those experts did to the EPR, i'm pretty sure they are not as "pro-edf" or "pro-nuclear" as the Green tell they are. > Fessenheim was a huge security risk and would not have passed any security checks in a country not as fanatically pro-nuclear as France. You're dissing CEA engineers and physicists here. > That says: It was in an seismic active zone This reason is bullshit. Fessenhein is a PWR reactor, unless you have something like 7 on the Richter scale, the reactor will likely just hold. On a 7, you have leakage risks, and maybe on a nine you'll get a meltdown? Do you think its likely to get a 7 or more there? > unprotected against plane crashes or terror attacks. True, plane crashes are not an issue though, unless you know exactly where the core or the pool is (one is a much much bigger issue than the other obviously). And to engage security mesures you need to either: push a big button, or cut electricity. Once the grid is down, there is no way to make the core explode, and if you take more than 30 minutes to put a bomb on it, it probably won't even meltdown. To reengage the reactor you need knowledge, so a sabotage is still possible. > There also were a bunch of accidents. True, and bad ones. Hiring contractors is good for us, earning that much doing pretty much nothing, but ultimately bad for the company, especially when you need to keep competency at a high level. Not the only nuclear plant in France where incompetency reigns from what i heard. > Those old reactor designs weren't safe. Untrue, but true for fessenheim. No commercial French reactor active right now are as unsafe as let's say Fukushima, because our Gen2 were that much better (as were the US's). Not as well designed as CANDUC type, but PWR are stable and do have passive protection against a chain reaction or a leak. Also, you can just move the core out and voila, no more nuclear reaction. Anyway. The second wave was improved upon "thanks" to the TMI incident, and even older reactors got better passive risk reduction upgrades and better detection. But, Fessenheim did had a lot of troubles (and by troubles, i mean incidents from human origin), and while the cuve could probably last another 30 to 40 years, the PWR tech also have big wear and tear effect on surrounding equipements. The CEA accounted for this in their rapport, and precognized a long downtime to put thing in order.

rusk 5y ago

Well Germany has access to lots of cheap coal so not so much stupid as teutonically pragmatic. Who knows might have been the coal lobbyists in this campaign as much as environmentalists

stkdump 5y ago

The numbers are public record. https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/156695/umfrage/brutto-stromerzeugung-in-deutschland-nach-energietraegern-seit-2007/ https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/156695/umfrag... There is no huge spike. And since the decision to shut down the nuclear plants, also coal has decreased massively, even more dramatically than nuclear.

itzprime 5y ago
Wind wasn't blowing the last few months, coal is back on top. https://www.dw.com/en/germany-coal-tops-wind-as-primary-electricity-source/a-59168105 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-coal-tops-wind-as-primary-elec...