5 ms·

Really curious why only within country? Security reasons? Also why 4 weeks? Just to be available for meetings? I find it funny that this is the American versio

Really curious why only within country? Security reasons? Also why 4 weeks? Just to be available for meetings? I find it funny that this is the American version of a nice holiday - go pay money to rent an Airbnb so you can work in a different environment.

jandrewrogers 5y ago
Tax, visa, and regulatory reasons. Other jurisdictions will impute residency for all legal purposes if you spend too much time there or work from there. They are trying to avoid myriad very messy legal edge cases.
vineyardmike 5y ago
> I find it funny that this is the American version of a nice holiday - go pay money to rent an Airbnb so you can work in a different environment. It's not. BUT its a nice way to get a change of scenery without burning holiday time.
- vineyardmike 5y ago
  Maybe you live in a cold climate and want to spend winter somewhere warm, but still work.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  Or support your kid in that overseas one month study program. There are a lot of interesting things you can do here with flexible working arrangements.
mimischi 5y ago
Likely tax?
- metagame 5y ago
  Almost certainly. Taxation is hard enough between states, for both the employer and the employee. Adding another country in the mix and it gets really hard, especially when (as is common with tech employees) people go to other countries to work without paying the slightest attention to how incredibly many immigration and labor laws they're breaking in their target nations.
dboreham 5y ago
There's really no such concept as an employee in another country. You need a subsidiary incorporated in that country and then they become an employee of that entity. So...huge paperwork hassle at the very least.
jdavis703 5y ago
There's different tax, visa and HR regulatory implications they probably don't want to deal with. For example if Amazon has an American worker who decides to work remotely in France (where Amazon is also established) can Amazon fire the American "at will" or are they subjected to French regulations that make terminating workers extremely difficult?
- cutenewt 5y ago
  Speaking of tax, allowing employees to work from home may allow them to avoid the newly created Seattle payroll tax: https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/pages/tax/articles/city-of-seattle-city-council-approves-the-payroll-expense-tax.html https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/pages/tax/articles/city-of-s...
- paulez 5y ago
  To be able to legally work in France, an American citizen would need a work visa which requires to have a local work contract. So they would have to follow French regulations. It also includes a minimum of 5 weeks vacation and 2 weeks of PTO, too bad!
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    Sorry if I misunderstood -- the 5 weeks isn't paid? If it is, what is the difference between the 5 weeks and the 2 weeks?
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      Yeah, I think you misunderstood. In Europe, "vacation" pretty much universally means "paid vacation". Otherwise, we'd call it "unpaid leave" or something. I've only recently -- in threads here on HN in the last few weeks, in fact -- encountered the acronym "PTO", and concluded from context that it must mean "personal time off". (Right?) I also didn't quite grok what the GP meant by including those "two weeks of PTO"; WTF are those, in a European context? Can't be sick days, because AFAIK at least in most of Europe there's no quantitive limit on those: When you're sick, you're sick. Have I understood correctly that Americans who happen not to be ill for more than the "sickday limit" in a given year usually take the opportunity to "use up their sick days" even if they're healthy? (To repeat what is rapidly becoming my refrain on here: God, America is weird.)
arnvald 5y ago
There are a number of reasons, first is that by working from another location you might be breaking the law, second is taxes - if you stay somewhere long enough they might argue you need to pay income tax there. Lastly, data protection laws vary per country and there's a chance you have to give your laptop with company data to authorities in another country, which might be a security issue.
- alasdair_ 5y ago
  >second is taxes - if you stay somewhere long enough they might argue you need to pay income tax there This is true even if you work a single day in a state. Consultants at Accenture, PWC, Bain etc. end up having to file in dozens of states a year sometimes. Fortunately their employer almost universally handles all the paperwork.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    It depends on the state but some states, as you say, want you to file for even working a single day and states are apparently really starting to crack down.
wonder_er 5y ago
It's likely that this is the Official Policy, but then people will just not mention to HR where they happen to be traveling to. > Hey [team], I'll be in [foreign country] for the next 3 weeks! and no one outside of that team ever knows anything except someone's zoom background has changed. If it gets mentioned once in a press release, and HR forgets to work hard to implement this in an ongoing way, it becomes a non-rule. Useful for lawyers and when talking to compliance people, but not a meaningful barrier for anyone actually going anywhere.
Seattle3503 5y ago
You can visit family and take care of them. I could imagine some doing this the entire month of December for the holidays.
neonbones 5y ago
There is an insightful summary of all the issues from HashiCorp founder when trying to establish an international remote-first company. I can agree on almost everything from his post because my employer (startup) is trying to do the same, we are a US-company, in the process of acquiring by one of the giants, and I'm working and living in Ukraine with a US-based contract. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17022563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17022563
8note 5y ago
What you can do is be working while travelling, extending your vacation by 2 days. One on the way to the location, and one on the way back.

jandrewrogers 5y ago

Tax, visa, and regulatory reasons. Other jurisdictions will impute residency for all legal purposes if you spend too much time there or work from there. They are trying to avoid myriad very messy legal edge cases.

vineyardmike 5y ago

> I find it funny that this is the American version of a nice holiday - go pay money to rent an Airbnb so you can work in a different environment. It's not. BUT its a nice way to get a change of scenery without burning holiday time.

vineyardmike 5y ago
Maybe you live in a cold climate and want to spend winter somewhere warm, but still work.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
Or support your kid in that overseas one month study program. There are a lot of interesting things you can do here with flexible working arrangements.

mimischi 5y ago

Likely tax?

metagame 5y ago
Almost certainly. Taxation is hard enough between states, for both the employer and the employee. Adding another country in the mix and it gets really hard, especially when (as is common with tech employees) people go to other countries to work without paying the slightest attention to how incredibly many immigration and labor laws they're breaking in their target nations.

dboreham 5y ago

There's really no such concept as an employee in another country. You need a subsidiary incorporated in that country and then they become an employee of that entity. So...huge paperwork hassle at the very least.

jdavis703 5y ago

There's different tax, visa and HR regulatory implications they probably don't want to deal with. For example if Amazon has an American worker who decides to work remotely in France (where Amazon is also established) can Amazon fire the American "at will" or are they subjected to French regulations that make terminating workers extremely difficult?

cutenewt 5y ago
Speaking of tax, allowing employees to work from home may allow them to avoid the newly created Seattle payroll tax: https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/pages/tax/articles/city-of-seattle-city-council-approves-the-payroll-expense-tax.html https://www2.deloitte.com/us/en/pages/tax/articles/city-of-s...
paulez 5y ago
To be able to legally work in France, an American citizen would need a work visa which requires to have a local work contract. So they would have to follow French regulations. It also includes a minimum of 5 weeks vacation and 2 weeks of PTO, too bad!
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  Sorry if I misunderstood -- the 5 weeks isn't paid? If it is, what is the difference between the 5 weeks and the 2 weeks?
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Yeah, I think you misunderstood. In Europe, "vacation" pretty much universally means "paid vacation". Otherwise, we'd call it "unpaid leave" or something. I've only recently -- in threads here on HN in the last few weeks, in fact -- encountered the acronym "PTO", and concluded from context that it must mean "personal time off". (Right?) I also didn't quite grok what the GP meant by including those "two weeks of PTO"; WTF are those, in a European context? Can't be sick days, because AFAIK at least in most of Europe there's no quantitive limit on those: When you're sick, you're sick. Have I understood correctly that Americans who happen not to be ill for more than the "sickday limit" in a given year usually take the opportunity to "use up their sick days" even if they're healthy? (To repeat what is rapidly becoming my refrain on here: God, America is weird.)

arnvald 5y ago

There are a number of reasons, first is that by working from another location you might be breaking the law, second is taxes - if you stay somewhere long enough they might argue you need to pay income tax there. Lastly, data protection laws vary per country and there's a chance you have to give your laptop with company data to authorities in another country, which might be a security issue.

alasdair_ 5y ago
>second is taxes - if you stay somewhere long enough they might argue you need to pay income tax there This is true even if you work a single day in a state. Consultants at Accenture, PWC, Bain etc. end up having to file in dozens of states a year sometimes. Fortunately their employer almost universally handles all the paperwork.
- ghaff 5y ago
  It depends on the state but some states, as you say, want you to file for even working a single day and states are apparently really starting to crack down.

wonder_er 5y ago

It's likely that this is the Official Policy, but then people will just not mention to HR where they happen to be traveling to. > Hey [team], I'll be in [foreign country] for the next 3 weeks! and no one outside of that team ever knows anything except someone's zoom background has changed. If it gets mentioned once in a press release, and HR forgets to work hard to implement this in an ongoing way, it becomes a non-rule. Useful for lawyers and when talking to compliance people, but not a meaningful barrier for anyone actually going anywhere.

Seattle3503 5y ago

You can visit family and take care of them. I could imagine some doing this the entire month of December for the holidays.

neonbones 5y ago

There is an insightful summary of all the issues from HashiCorp founder when trying to establish an international remote-first company. I can agree on almost everything from his post because my employer (startup) is trying to do the same, we are a US-company, in the process of acquiring by one of the giants, and I'm working and living in Ukraine with a US-based contract. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17022563 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17022563

8note 5y ago

What you can do is be working while travelling, extending your vacation by 2 days. One on the way to the location, and one on the way back.