9 ms·

I have shipped ~100 apps on the app store, ranging in size from simple to large/complex. The app store, review process, and (especially) Apple's demands for 30

by zionic 5y ago

I have shipped ~100 apps on the app store, ranging in size from simple to large/complex. The app store, review process, and (especially) Apple's demands for 30% of everything make dealing with them easily the worst aspect of my work. Apple makes several million/year off their cut from me, and I would drop the App Store in a heartbeat if I could.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago
You you feel like you get the level of service of a premium customer paying several million?
- zionic 5y ago
  There has been absolutely zero change in “service” quality from when my first app made $15 a month to my developer account pulling in >$10mil annually. An email would be nice. Maybe a fruit basket.
  - amelius 5y ago
    > An email would be nice. Maybe a fruit basket. Ask not what Apple can do for you -- ask what you can do for Apple.
  - alanlammiman 5y ago
    Arguably it gets worse. At $10mil you're on their radar and get a lot more rejections.
  - shapefrog 5y ago
    > account pulling in >$10mil annually. An email would be nice. Maybe a fruit basket. They cut you a cheque for 10mil each year, maybe you are the one that should be sending them a fruit basket at christmas.
    - effingwewt 5y ago
      The hubris. This is like failing restaurants who can't hire people putting up signs saying 'giving away stimulus checks every 2 weeks apply inside'. They aren't cutting him a check, they are installing themselves as a middle man between him and his money. Apple did none of the work, but take almost half the money. Remove the app store, it's all spam and ads anyways and search is damn near impossible. I'd say they should be paying him since his apps bring in so many customers, and he has to do all the legwork. If people stop making iOS apps, thr machine stops.
      - shapefrog 5y ago
        If people stop making iOS apps, apple stop writing them big fat cheques. There are a shit ton more developers than there are platforms to develop on.
echelon 5y ago
Apple is doing nothing for you except for bullying, extortion, and removing your customer relationship, risking your business' health. Desktop applications and operating systems don't have to put up with manual review and tax. (Can you imagine how horrific that world would be?) Mobile shouldn't either. They serve the same purpose. In addition, there's one more unspoken burden Apple places on everyone: you have to write a native app for iOS. There should be a standard for devices. The differences are trivial. I'm glad the EU, Korea, and Japan are standing up to this and launching antitrust cases.
- HatchedLake721 5y ago
  This is so dishonest, it's unbelievable. Just over 10 years ago pretty much only way to install latest apps on your "internet communicator" phone was to go to xda-developers, browse the forum and download some random files and trust they won't brick your Windows Mobile device. Mobile operators controlled the market and software on the phones everywhere. Apple came in, kicked everyone in the butt and changed the whole mobile and app development industry in every country, worldwide, forever. Mobile operators can no longer dictate phone's software or hardware. Apple enforced quality, design (UIKit), added manual reviews, mobiles and software became easy and accessible to consumers. They also gave developers a marketplace with instant access to millions (now over a billion) of users with a connected credit card, making a simple purchase just a tap away. They also took away any issues of selling software worldwide. If you sell your app in Germany or South Korea, you don't need to worry which VAT to charge or when to file your local German tax reports. And so many more things, from insane APIs, app discoverability and to all the billions they spent on software and hardware R&D to make apps even better. And now you're telling they do nothing except bullying and extortion. Seriously, it's so unbelievable that people forget what the world was just a few years ago, and suddenly feel so entitled that it's their basic human right to have access to a 1+ billion people marketplace to distribute their software. If you would tell anyone 15 years ago that they would be able to sell software on a digital shelf where 1 billion people can find and purchase it in under 30 seconds, they wouldn't believe you. But today, you're saying what Apple made possible after making a huge bet and changing everyones lives, are suddenly bullies and extortionist...
viktorcode 5y ago
That's exactly why for me as a customer the stringent review process is a bonus. When thousands of developers autogenerate their apps from templates with minimum amount of original content I want someone to control the floodgates between me and them.
- emouryto 5y ago
  Your reply does not follow based on the original comment. An app that generated millions to Apple made multiple millions in revenue from users that found it useful. There is nothing Apple needs to do to 'protect' you: people are buying the app, it's probably doing something well. Apple is just milking the developer.
  - droopyEyelids 5y ago
    >users that found it useful "Useful" is a huge stretch. I tried the game "egg, inc" this weekend and one of the mechanics forces you to view adds for other apps, and it's all addiction mechanics with an indecent 'skin' on them. For example, there is one bejeweled-like game where there is a king who is being tortured, and you must make matches at speed or the spikes are driven into him, or he is forced to pee himself. There is another 'match two' like game where your reward is to take a female character and shave her head so she acts ashamed, and then dress her in streetwalker clothing.
    - ketralnis 5y ago
      So you're mad about a game unrelated to the GP, that passed through the review process anyway?
    - howinteresting 5y ago
      So your argument is that Apple's review process is useless? Ultimately, Apple (and Google) have incentivized developers to make terrible games full of ads. Perhaps that is a larger problem that requires a broader, more systemic solution.
- amluto 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rexf 5y ago
Similar comment from Panic (major independent mac app developer): > ... the App Store takes parts of our job that we're already extremely good at like customer support, quick updates, easy refunds and makes them all more stressful and difficult, in exchange for giving Apple 30% of our revenue. via https://twitter.com/TechEmails/status/1412850761231392773/ https://twitter.com/TechEmails/status/1412850761231392773/ (update: formatting)
- MarcoZavala 5y ago
bborud 5y ago
I have never understood how someone dares base their business on the benevolence of a company that can, at any time and for whatever reason, shut them down and essentially render a product entirely worthless. Personally that's a risk I'm not comfortable with.
- cptskippy 5y ago
  For some people it isn't their only revenue source and the adage "you don't leave money on the table" applies.
- burnished 5y ago
  Sure, but clearly other people are. As an outsider it's clear why people do, the risk drives away some of the competition (people like you), and I'll presume you are a thoughtful and skilled engineer. So here you have a situation where you have an increased risk of a rug-pull without recourse (maybe already a risk for you anyway), but plenty of money on the table, and good principled engineers like you choosing another route.
  - 6510 5y ago
    Fragile components make a bad developer.
  - bborud 5y ago
    This was more about me seeing an unappealing risk profile than me being principled. The discussion about principles is a far more complicated one I think.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Two companies control the entirety of the mobile app distribution and mobile app payment markets. If you want to enter nearly any mobile-related markets, you have no other choice but to have rent extracted from your business by either Apple or Google. Those two companies have stifled innovation in the mobile app market for over a decade now, and they expect you to pay tribute.
kenver 5y ago
I’ve had a similar path to you. Whenever I’m having a frustrating experience with them I just remind myself that it’s better than it used to be. It used to take weeks to resolve things - now it merely takes days. The problem is that most of the time the frustration should have never existed.
tomtimtall 5y ago
> I would drop the App Store in a heartbeat if I could. You can. Nothing is stoping you. Just do it.
- shapefrog 5y ago
  Them might be addicted to the several million a year they make out of the deal.
MarcoZavala 5y ago
shapefrog 5y ago
> Apple makes several million/year off their cut from me So you make 10's of millions a year off your cut from them. Horrible.

by zionic 5y ago

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

You you feel like you get the level of service of a premium customer paying several million?

zionic 5y ago
There has been absolutely zero change in “service” quality from when my first app made $15 a month to my developer account pulling in >$10mil annually. An email would be nice. Maybe a fruit basket.
- amelius 5y ago
  > An email would be nice. Maybe a fruit basket. Ask not what Apple can do for you -- ask what you can do for Apple.
- alanlammiman 5y ago
  Arguably it gets worse. At $10mil you're on their radar and get a lot more rejections.
- shapefrog 5y ago
  > account pulling in >$10mil annually. An email would be nice. Maybe a fruit basket. They cut you a cheque for 10mil each year, maybe you are the one that should be sending them a fruit basket at christmas.
  - effingwewt 5y ago
    The hubris. This is like failing restaurants who can't hire people putting up signs saying 'giving away stimulus checks every 2 weeks apply inside'. They aren't cutting him a check, they are installing themselves as a middle man between him and his money. Apple did none of the work, but take almost half the money. Remove the app store, it's all spam and ads anyways and search is damn near impossible. I'd say they should be paying him since his apps bring in so many customers, and he has to do all the legwork. If people stop making iOS apps, thr machine stops.
    - shapefrog 5y ago
      If people stop making iOS apps, apple stop writing them big fat cheques. There are a shit ton more developers than there are platforms to develop on.

echelon 5y ago

Apple is doing nothing for you except for bullying, extortion, and removing your customer relationship, risking your business' health. Desktop applications and operating systems don't have to put up with manual review and tax. (Can you imagine how horrific that world would be?) Mobile shouldn't either. They serve the same purpose. In addition, there's one more unspoken burden Apple places on everyone: you have to write a native app for iOS. There should be a standard for devices. The differences are trivial. I'm glad the EU, Korea, and Japan are standing up to this and launching antitrust cases.

HatchedLake721 5y ago
This is so dishonest, it's unbelievable. Just over 10 years ago pretty much only way to install latest apps on your "internet communicator" phone was to go to xda-developers, browse the forum and download some random files and trust they won't brick your Windows Mobile device. Mobile operators controlled the market and software on the phones everywhere. Apple came in, kicked everyone in the butt and changed the whole mobile and app development industry in every country, worldwide, forever. Mobile operators can no longer dictate phone's software or hardware. Apple enforced quality, design (UIKit), added manual reviews, mobiles and software became easy and accessible to consumers. They also gave developers a marketplace with instant access to millions (now over a billion) of users with a connected credit card, making a simple purchase just a tap away. They also took away any issues of selling software worldwide. If you sell your app in Germany or South Korea, you don't need to worry which VAT to charge or when to file your local German tax reports. And so many more things, from insane APIs, app discoverability and to all the billions they spent on software and hardware R&D to make apps even better. And now you're telling they do nothing except bullying and extortion. Seriously, it's so unbelievable that people forget what the world was just a few years ago, and suddenly feel so entitled that it's their basic human right to have access to a 1+ billion people marketplace to distribute their software. If you would tell anyone 15 years ago that they would be able to sell software on a digital shelf where 1 billion people can find and purchase it in under 30 seconds, they wouldn't believe you. But today, you're saying what Apple made possible after making a huge bet and changing everyones lives, are suddenly bullies and extortionist...

viktorcode 5y ago

That's exactly why for me as a customer the stringent review process is a bonus. When thousands of developers autogenerate their apps from templates with minimum amount of original content I want someone to control the floodgates between me and them.

emouryto 5y ago
Your reply does not follow based on the original comment. An app that generated millions to Apple made multiple millions in revenue from users that found it useful. There is nothing Apple needs to do to 'protect' you: people are buying the app, it's probably doing something well. Apple is just milking the developer.
- droopyEyelids 5y ago
  >users that found it useful "Useful" is a huge stretch. I tried the game "egg, inc" this weekend and one of the mechanics forces you to view adds for other apps, and it's all addiction mechanics with an indecent 'skin' on them. For example, there is one bejeweled-like game where there is a king who is being tortured, and you must make matches at speed or the spikes are driven into him, or he is forced to pee himself. There is another 'match two' like game where your reward is to take a female character and shave her head so she acts ashamed, and then dress her in streetwalker clothing.
  - ketralnis 5y ago
    So you're mad about a game unrelated to the GP, that passed through the review process anyway?
  - howinteresting 5y ago
    So your argument is that Apple's review process is useless? Ultimately, Apple (and Google) have incentivized developers to make terrible games full of ads. Perhaps that is a larger problem that requires a broader, more systemic solution.
amluto 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

rexf 5y ago

Similar comment from Panic (major independent mac app developer): > ... the App Store takes parts of our job that we're already extremely good at like customer support, quick updates, easy refunds and makes them all more stressful and difficult, in exchange for giving Apple 30% of our revenue. via https://twitter.com/TechEmails/status/1412850761231392773/ https://twitter.com/TechEmails/status/1412850761231392773/ (update: formatting)

MarcoZavala 5y ago

bborud 5y ago

I have never understood how someone dares base their business on the benevolence of a company that can, at any time and for whatever reason, shut them down and essentially render a product entirely worthless. Personally that's a risk I'm not comfortable with.

cptskippy 5y ago
For some people it isn't their only revenue source and the adage "you don't leave money on the table" applies.
burnished 5y ago
Sure, but clearly other people are. As an outsider it's clear why people do, the risk drives away some of the competition (people like you), and I'll presume you are a thoughtful and skilled engineer. So here you have a situation where you have an increased risk of a rug-pull without recourse (maybe already a risk for you anyway), but plenty of money on the table, and good principled engineers like you choosing another route.
- 6510 5y ago
  Fragile components make a bad developer.
- bborud 5y ago
  This was more about me seeing an unappealing risk profile than me being principled. The discussion about principles is a far more complicated one I think.
heavyset_go 5y ago
Two companies control the entirety of the mobile app distribution and mobile app payment markets. If you want to enter nearly any mobile-related markets, you have no other choice but to have rent extracted from your business by either Apple or Google. Those two companies have stifled innovation in the mobile app market for over a decade now, and they expect you to pay tribute.

kenver 5y ago

I’ve had a similar path to you. Whenever I’m having a frustrating experience with them I just remind myself that it’s better than it used to be. It used to take weeks to resolve things - now it merely takes days. The problem is that most of the time the frustration should have never existed.

tomtimtall 5y ago

> I would drop the App Store in a heartbeat if I could. You can. Nothing is stoping you. Just do it.

shapefrog 5y ago
Them might be addicted to the several million a year they make out of the deal.

MarcoZavala 5y ago

shapefrog 5y ago

> Apple makes several million/year off their cut from me So you make 10's of millions a year off your cut from them. Horrible.