8 ms·

Do people decide to go to work for a company based on the language they'll be working in? Seems like something that should be very far down the priority list?

brundolf 5y ago
I think there's a little-discussed connection between dev happiness and motivation/productivity. I for one am much more driven when I feel good about the thing I'm producing, and the language it's written in has a big impact on that.
alfiedotwtf 5y ago
It's my only priority... Every place I've worked at, I only applied after asking a) what language do they use b) is it technically cool.
jlg23 5y ago
Yes, I do. Just because I know how to speak/write some language I don't have to love it. And I rather do something I enjoy than dragging myself to work every day. Increased productivity is just a corollary. (I'll still accept a java gig, but the salary must make up for the daily misery).
jes 5y ago
At 62, I'd probably work for free for a company that used Common Lisp and had half a clue.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- diskzero 5y ago
  I'll bite! Drop me a note. Let's find out if I have a clue.
  - ballpark 5y ago
    I hope that you'll pay him. If you don't it will be an indication of lack of clues
    - diskzero 5y ago
      But of course. I realize the use of "probably work for free" should not be taken literally. It does show that he(?) places value on other aspects of work rather than making a high salary performing joyless tasks I have been in the fortunate position of being able to provide employment to others (and myself) in several companies. I don't exploit people, I offer wages as competitive as possible, I hire people from non-traditional backgrounds and mentor employees who probably would not get the attention of other large tech companies. I am not a saint and admit I may be clueless about some things. Providing a workplace that is safe, free of discrimination, rewards people for hard work and supports those who are in need of help are areas I think I do have a clue about.
      - jes 5y ago
        Hello -- I did just send an email. I would enjoy a relaxed discussion.
capableweb 5y ago
Yeah, I currently do. I only work with companies who can ensure I get to write and maintain Clojure/ClojureScript projects, or any other lisp-like languages. Just like I'm sure many people would reject jobs that would force you to write assembly code now when we have higher abstraction languages, I reject jobs that are requiring me to work with inferior languages and ecosystems like Rust, Go or JavaScript. It's simply not worth the frustration anymore. In the beginning of my career I didn't have the flexibility to choose what languages to work with though, but nowadays I am that lucky.
- waffletower 5y ago
  I haven chosen to work for companies where a significant amount of my development output will, in theory, be in Clojure. I do work on private projects where Clojure is less ideal, and avail myself of the breadth available to the python ecosystem for example, but when there the multitudinous shortcomings do not take long to manifest.
  - rastapasta42 5y ago
    > python ecosystem for example, but when there the multitudinous shortcomings do not take long to manifest. What type of shortcomings? Can you provide some examples? (The question is coming from someone who wrote a Scheme interpreter in the past, but have been using Python for the last 8 years and haven't touched Lisp in long time).
- ballpark 5y ago
  I also choose to work for companies that use Clojure/Clojurescript. I'm not debating about languages that are better or not, but I get annoyed working in most others.
- Keyframe 5y ago
  How are mentioned three inferior to Clojure and Clojurescript? What if you need performance or a bit less of maximalism in the community... Or even a community at all and libraries and support?
askonomm 5y ago
Yes, people want to work with technologies they enjoy, therefore doing work they enjoy.
MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
What programming languages do you know? Do you prefer any one of them?
waynesonfire 5y ago
yes. in fact, startups use this property to their advantage in recruiting by adopting a niche technology stack to hire talented engineers that want to solve problems using that tech stack.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
AtNightWeCode 5y ago
No, it is a warning sign if Lisp, VB6, Cobol or similar is used. ;) Edit: Just to clarify, the comment was a joke but yes, devs for sure reject jobs at prominent workplaces because of tech. I myself know a highly attractive workplace that want me to join but I won't because I don't believe in their tech stack.
tombert 5y ago
I seek out companies using niche languages not because I necessarily care about that specific language, but because I find that companies that are willing to work with niche tech tend to be more fun to work for. Typically if you're a Haskell or F# developer, then you probably are at least a little interested in theory and mathematics. Since I'm also interested in theory and math, there's a selection bias of "folks I am extremely likely to get along with". With a more mainstream language like Java, you're not necessarily going to select for that trait. This isn't to knock Java engineers, since I know a ton of Java engineers much smarter than me, but that fact that Java (JavaScript/Python/C#/any-other-mainstream-language) is popular means that a lot of people learn it because there's a lot of jobs in it and/or it pays well. There's nothing wrong with using a language that makes you money obviously, and there's nothing wrong with liking Java, but as a perpetual-geek I am certainly less drawn to "Java Shops".
Barrin92 5y ago
fairly high up the list for me. If there were more/any F# jobs around here I'd happily apply. Come to like the language a lot.
EamonnMR 5y ago
I may have passed up on an opportunity because a company used Perforce instead of Git at some point, though memories that old are unreliable at best.
cletus 5y ago
They certainly can decide where not to work based on this. Many years ago I had a conversation with IMDB and ran for the hills when I found out the used Perl.
gmadsen 5y ago
many companies require certain expertise in a specific language
emidln 5y ago
Why? The things people often list above language are table stakes. I wouldn't give up a high salary to work in Clojure for a low salary, but that's not a choice you have to make. I wouldn't give up interesting problems, fully paid insurance, a good team, 4+ weeks of vacation, etc but again I don't have to give up any of those to work in Clojure. The choice isn't some ideologically pure Clojure startup scraping by versus proper pay + benefits at a large enterprise. If you're doing application development, it's nice to have a language that truly cares about backwards compatibility and interoperability with a common platform. It means I can focus on solving problems and not incidental complexity. I can easily hack Clojure from the comfort of a pom.xml if necessary. I'm not working in Clojure right now because I found interesting work outside of application development, but when I was last looking in 2018, I could get roughly all of the things I wanted from a job and still hack Clojure from a CIDER REPL in Emacs all day.
cheeze 5y ago
Functional fanatics are totally the kind of people who seek out teams or spaces for a specific language. I stay away from those people, not going to lie.
beepbooptheory 5y ago
just seems like a promising avenue to one day actually getting a job!
outworlder 5y ago
> Seems like something that should be very far down the priority list? Not entirely. It's a proxy - and a window - on the company culture.
yissp 5y ago
If I was offered a job with great pay, benefits, and company culture, but all of my programming would need to be done in brainfuck, I'd probably turn it down.
- eointierney 5y ago
  Eh, surely you'd just build a brainfuck transpiler in lisp and coast
  - klyrs 5y ago
    (parody) Ugh, nobody would want to touch that unreadable machine-generated crap...
weavie 5y ago
Yup, I applied to and worked for one of the companies on this list purely because they were using Common Lisp.
AtlasBarfed 5y ago
When you start a job, you are a noob from the perspective of processes, frameworks, paradigms, and current codebase. You're most susceptible to intellectual bullying in this stage. It's really what makes switching jobs the worst part in programming: you look like an idiot no matter what the first week or two, and are completely at the mercy of your manager and team culture to sink or swim. Add a new language as ammunition to be intellectually bullied? No thanks.
joshmn 5y ago
I do. I’m trying to transition out of development and into management. The last thing I want to do is leave behind the place I’ve called home for the last 10 years, abandoning all the headaches from the language’s subtleties in the process. I’m proficient in enough and have contributed (reasonably) to production-level systems in many, but that doesn’t mean I enjoyed them as much as I do my mainstay.
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
Tangentially. Every job posting is about "5+ years experience in language x, y, and z" So it's very hard to land a job in a language I don't know. It's all pretty stupid, for the most part any software engineer can pick up any new language pretty quickly when working 9 hours a day on it. The language is the easy part of comp sci. I'd love to take a job in Android or web development but I just don't have experience so I don't get interviews.
vegai_ 5y ago
I once did the opposite: I thought that technology details don't matter if the company is good in other ways. Did the mature thing, so to speak. I was wrong and the company was the worst professional experience of my ~20 year career. Now I vet my future employers' tech stack before signing any papers. It doesn't have to perfect (that's what I often come there to improve) but it has to be not shit, and they have to accept that fundamental problems need to be fixed.

brundolf 5y ago

I think there's a little-discussed connection between dev happiness and motivation/productivity. I for one am much more driven when I feel good about the thing I'm producing, and the language it's written in has a big impact on that.

alfiedotwtf 5y ago

It's my only priority... Every place I've worked at, I only applied after asking a) what language do they use b) is it technically cool.

jlg23 5y ago

Yes, I do. Just because I know how to speak/write some language I don't have to love it. And I rather do something I enjoy than dragging myself to work every day. Increased productivity is just a corollary. (I'll still accept a java gig, but the salary must make up for the daily misery).

jes 5y ago

At 62, I'd probably work for free for a company that used Common Lisp and had half a clue.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
diskzero 5y ago
I'll bite! Drop me a note. Let's find out if I have a clue.
- ballpark 5y ago
  I hope that you'll pay him. If you don't it will be an indication of lack of clues
  - diskzero 5y ago
    But of course. I realize the use of "probably work for free" should not be taken literally. It does show that he(?) places value on other aspects of work rather than making a high salary performing joyless tasks I have been in the fortunate position of being able to provide employment to others (and myself) in several companies. I don't exploit people, I offer wages as competitive as possible, I hire people from non-traditional backgrounds and mentor employees who probably would not get the attention of other large tech companies. I am not a saint and admit I may be clueless about some things. Providing a workplace that is safe, free of discrimination, rewards people for hard work and supports those who are in need of help are areas I think I do have a clue about.
    - jes 5y ago
      Hello -- I did just send an email. I would enjoy a relaxed discussion.

capableweb 5y ago

Yeah, I currently do. I only work with companies who can ensure I get to write and maintain Clojure/ClojureScript projects, or any other lisp-like languages. Just like I'm sure many people would reject jobs that would force you to write assembly code now when we have higher abstraction languages, I reject jobs that are requiring me to work with inferior languages and ecosystems like Rust, Go or JavaScript. It's simply not worth the frustration anymore. In the beginning of my career I didn't have the flexibility to choose what languages to work with though, but nowadays I am that lucky.

waffletower 5y ago
I haven chosen to work for companies where a significant amount of my development output will, in theory, be in Clojure. I do work on private projects where Clojure is less ideal, and avail myself of the breadth available to the python ecosystem for example, but when there the multitudinous shortcomings do not take long to manifest.
- rastapasta42 5y ago
  > python ecosystem for example, but when there the multitudinous shortcomings do not take long to manifest. What type of shortcomings? Can you provide some examples? (The question is coming from someone who wrote a Scheme interpreter in the past, but have been using Python for the last 8 years and haven't touched Lisp in long time).
ballpark 5y ago
I also choose to work for companies that use Clojure/Clojurescript. I'm not debating about languages that are better or not, but I get annoyed working in most others.
Keyframe 5y ago
How are mentioned three inferior to Clojure and Clojurescript? What if you need performance or a bit less of maximalism in the community... Or even a community at all and libraries and support?

askonomm 5y ago

Yes, people want to work with technologies they enjoy, therefore doing work they enjoy.

MrBuddyCasino 5y ago

What programming languages do you know? Do you prefer any one of them?

waynesonfire 5y ago

yes. in fact, startups use this property to their advantage in recruiting by adopting a niche technology stack to hire talented engineers that want to solve problems using that tech stack.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

AtNightWeCode 5y ago

No, it is a warning sign if Lisp, VB6, Cobol or similar is used. ;) Edit: Just to clarify, the comment was a joke but yes, devs for sure reject jobs at prominent workplaces because of tech. I myself know a highly attractive workplace that want me to join but I won't because I don't believe in their tech stack.

tombert 5y ago

I seek out companies using niche languages not because I necessarily care about that specific language, but because I find that companies that are willing to work with niche tech tend to be more fun to work for. Typically if you're a Haskell or F# developer, then you probably are at least a little interested in theory and mathematics. Since I'm also interested in theory and math, there's a selection bias of "folks I am extremely likely to get along with". With a more mainstream language like Java, you're not necessarily going to select for that trait. This isn't to knock Java engineers, since I know a ton of Java engineers much smarter than me, but that fact that Java (JavaScript/Python/C#/any-other-mainstream-language) is popular means that a lot of people learn it because there's a lot of jobs in it and/or it pays well. There's nothing wrong with using a language that makes you money obviously, and there's nothing wrong with liking Java, but as a perpetual-geek I am certainly less drawn to "Java Shops".

Barrin92 5y ago

fairly high up the list for me. If there were more/any F# jobs around here I'd happily apply. Come to like the language a lot.

EamonnMR 5y ago

I may have passed up on an opportunity because a company used Perforce instead of Git at some point, though memories that old are unreliable at best.

cletus 5y ago

They certainly can decide where not to work based on this. Many years ago I had a conversation with IMDB and ran for the hills when I found out the used Perl.

gmadsen 5y ago

many companies require certain expertise in a specific language

emidln 5y ago

Why? The things people often list above language are table stakes. I wouldn't give up a high salary to work in Clojure for a low salary, but that's not a choice you have to make. I wouldn't give up interesting problems, fully paid insurance, a good team, 4+ weeks of vacation, etc but again I don't have to give up any of those to work in Clojure. The choice isn't some ideologically pure Clojure startup scraping by versus proper pay + benefits at a large enterprise. If you're doing application development, it's nice to have a language that truly cares about backwards compatibility and interoperability with a common platform. It means I can focus on solving problems and not incidental complexity. I can easily hack Clojure from the comfort of a pom.xml if necessary. I'm not working in Clojure right now because I found interesting work outside of application development, but when I was last looking in 2018, I could get roughly all of the things I wanted from a job and still hack Clojure from a CIDER REPL in Emacs all day.

cheeze 5y ago

Functional fanatics are totally the kind of people who seek out teams or spaces for a specific language. I stay away from those people, not going to lie.

beepbooptheory 5y ago

just seems like a promising avenue to one day actually getting a job!

outworlder 5y ago

> Seems like something that should be very far down the priority list? Not entirely. It's a proxy - and a window - on the company culture.

yissp 5y ago

If I was offered a job with great pay, benefits, and company culture, but all of my programming would need to be done in brainfuck, I'd probably turn it down.

eointierney 5y ago
Eh, surely you'd just build a brainfuck transpiler in lisp and coast
- klyrs 5y ago
  (parody) Ugh, nobody would want to touch that unreadable machine-generated crap...

weavie 5y ago

Yup, I applied to and worked for one of the companies on this list purely because they were using Common Lisp.

AtlasBarfed 5y ago

When you start a job, you are a noob from the perspective of processes, frameworks, paradigms, and current codebase. You're most susceptible to intellectual bullying in this stage. It's really what makes switching jobs the worst part in programming: you look like an idiot no matter what the first week or two, and are completely at the mercy of your manager and team culture to sink or swim. Add a new language as ammunition to be intellectually bullied? No thanks.

joshmn 5y ago

I do. I’m trying to transition out of development and into management. The last thing I want to do is leave behind the place I’ve called home for the last 10 years, abandoning all the headaches from the language’s subtleties in the process. I’m proficient in enough and have contributed (reasonably) to production-level systems in many, but that doesn’t mean I enjoyed them as much as I do my mainstay.

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

Tangentially. Every job posting is about "5+ years experience in language x, y, and z" So it's very hard to land a job in a language I don't know. It's all pretty stupid, for the most part any software engineer can pick up any new language pretty quickly when working 9 hours a day on it. The language is the easy part of comp sci. I'd love to take a job in Android or web development but I just don't have experience so I don't get interviews.

vegai_ 5y ago

I once did the opposite: I thought that technology details don't matter if the company is good in other ways. Did the mature thing, so to speak. I was wrong and the company was the worst professional experience of my ~20 year career. Now I vet my future employers' tech stack before signing any papers. It doesn't have to perfect (that's what I often come there to improve) but it has to be not shit, and they have to accept that fundamental problems need to be fixed.