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This sounds like a bad device. The fact that people will use the squares and parks for large activities like this is a really good part of Chinese culture. You

This sounds like a bad device. The fact that people will use the squares and parks for large activities like this is a really good part of Chinese culture. You bring together community, you get exercise, etc. That's a great thing. US really underutilizes public spaces and many things become a financial transaction. This is just one of the many reasons why Chinese cities are almost universally better than American cities (more walkable, better transit, easy navigation, more public spaces. Though they do love their super blocks).

seanmcdirmid 5y ago
The problem are the apartments around those squares, or even just near them. Noise pollution is a touchy subject in dense urban China, and sound carries very easily.
fxtentacle 5y ago
Unless, of course, you would like to sleep after 6 AM. Some of those grannies will compensate for their own hearing loss by making the music more noisy. When I was living in Vietnam and opened the window of my flat, I could sometimes here them from a park that was 3 side roads away. It must be genuinely painful for those that live above the park.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  I heard a youtuber complaining about 11:30pm night owl grannies, so there's no escape.
- jiminymcmoogley 5y ago
  seems like some of these dancing grannies would do right to invest in a few pairs of wireless headphones.. maybe theres an initial embarassment hurdle to overcome but ive been to a "silent disco"-type event before and that quickly passes
  - olyjohn 5y ago
    Funny, it mentions in the article that some of them have already done that...
dartharva 5y ago
From the article: >But neighbours complain it has gotten out of control, with competing groups blasting their music over each other in small areas, and bullying those who try to intervene. Viral videos and reports have shown the groups arguing and fighting with basketball players to take over their court, or, in one case, breaking into a football field and stopping the game to dance in the space, prompting a police response and arrests. >Some disputes have escalated to violence. >“Most of them are the products of the Red Guard era, they don’t respect society or the environment,” said a young Chinese resident of Guiyang, who did not want to be named. >“Square dancing is a problem left over from history. Many elderly people feel that the whole China is built by their generation. They have the absolute voice and status. We young people have done nothing, and of course are not qualified to question them.” >“I tried to communicate with them once, but the police stopped me,” said the Guiyang man. “They thought I was going to do something bad. You know the golden rule of Chinese policy: the larger number of people matters. Everything is based on social maintenance.” Hardly sounds like a "really good" part of culture to me.
- Barrin92 5y ago
  you can argue whether they maybe should tone down the noise a little but the health benefits, both physical and social as well as even the capital benefits, from the article: "China is home to an estimated 100 million dancing grannies. Square dancing allows older women, many of whom live alone or with younger family members who they accompanied on a move to the cities, to socialise. They form strong bonds, often shopping or doing other activities, including group investments, together, the South China Morning Post reported" are most likely very, very high and almost certainly underestimated. The kind of social security that comes out of having these kinds of relations well into old age probably saves society an incalculable amount of resources compared to the risk of social and financial isolation if these women could not meet. Maybe find a way to make the grannies a little less militant but you would be straight up foolish to not encourage the elderly to socialize.
  - dartharva 5y ago
    >the health benefits, both physical and social as well as even the capital benefits, are most likely very, very high and almost certainly underestimated. I'd argue it's you who's underestimating the social and capital damage those gangs of elderly people hogging public places can cause to the working population. It's apparent that had it been youngsters stirring up such racket in the name of "social benefits", they would have promptly been squashed. You can't just go and disturb and/or deny access to public places to other people just because you need to "socialize", it's just unfair.
duxup 5y ago
That's an interesting POV. In the US my local parks and public spaces have exercise groups (of all sorts), music events, kids activates, farmer's markets, ... events OFTEN. The fact that there is so much space might make it seem like some are empty, but there's always something going on near me. But it's almost never with loud music outside the dedicated music events that have spaces for just that.
- b112 5y ago
  Loud music isn't a perquisite to gather and do things. Unless you are the dancing grannies, apparently.
  - jjoonathan 5y ago
    Right, and therein lies the probable answer -- regulate the noise level.
  - OneTimePetes 5y ago
    cheap headphones for everyone, plus syncing app?
    - willcipriano 5y ago
      Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Retekess-Portable-Earphone-Digital-Rechargeable/dp/B019BYBR48 https://www.amazon.com/Retekess-Portable-Earphone-Digital-Re... And a FM transmitter is what I would go for.
- ecshafer 5y ago
  I see events often as well, but in China its more like I saw these events in public squares, constantly. People dancing, or exercising, or playing badminton in pretty large groups. Its not there's a few events a week, like in the US. Its there are multiple events a day.
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
vmception 5y ago
okay interesting observation, but why is the device bad?
- ecshafer 5y ago
  I personally believe that interfering with people socializing and building a community is a negative. I concede that there can be issues with some events. But these are people who are a little loud, and is ruining many people's enjoyment for one person's enjoyment.
  - toomanyrichies 5y ago
    You could make the same argument about noisy neighbors having house parties late at night. Does their right to play loud music supersede the neighborhood's right to a good night's sleep? There are many ways to socialize and build community. Why do they need to pick this specific way?
  - alpaca128 5y ago
    Sleep is not about enjoyment, it is one of the most important influences on long-term health. Even more important than "a little loud" music and dancing at a time others want to rest. From all I've heard the chinese work week is challenging enough as it is, even without noise pollution on top.
thieving_magpie 5y ago
>US really underutilizes public spaces and many things become a financial transaction I cannot understand the underutilization of public spaces. That's very far from my experiences but it may just be regional. I have no idea what you mean about "many things become a financial transaction".
- ecshafer 5y ago
  A huge amount of things in the US seem to be go somewhere and pay money to use the space. Whether its taking a class somewhere, a gym, going to a mall/store. Even then outside a few major cities, most places you need to drive to public places.
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    I feel like part of this is the ability to exclude others; ironically exclusion (or exclusivity) seems to be an important part of the American identity. I had hosted a birthday party at a public park at one point, and one of the parents had asked me if I was worried about other people being there.
    - NoGravitas 5y ago
      In the US, we have a problem of "drained pool" politics[1], where white people will vote to take away public amenities (like the eponymous public swimming pools) from themselves, because they can no longer exclude Black people from them. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/16/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-heather-mcghee.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/16/opinion/ezra-klein-podcas...
  - vel0city 5y ago
    I mean, some of the US is like that. Other parts of the US, like where I live, have some pretty good public spaces available. I've got a park down the street with soccer fields, baseball and softball fields, a half court basketball setup, a fishing pond, picnic tables at the edge of some woods with grills, multiple playgrounds focusing on different kids ages/sizes/abilities. I can hop on a bus near my home and go to the larger sports complex with fancier fields and more organized teams, or the recreation centers with gymnasiums, board games to check out, tennis courts, waterparks, hobby meetings, etc. I see people using these facilities a good bit, there's usually people walking the trails around the parks, children playing on the playgrounds, people hanging out around the picnic tables, the pool and waterpark facilities get crowded at times. And then I can hop on the train and take it downtown to all the parks and other resources available there. And I live in a suburb! Lots of people in the US who feel there are no public city services often just don't realize the services their city already provides or are unaware of how to use them. Even in my city which has absolutely wonderful city services, I often find friends and neighbors completely unaware of the things which exist. We have busses running all over my town but I imagine if you asked any random person if they knew any local bus route they would have no idea where to even begin.
gaoshan 5y ago
In theory you are right but the reality of these dancing grannies is that they can be loud as hell. Like, disturbingly loud over a huge area and the noise pollution they introduce can be bad even by China's fairly noisy urban environments. Public spaces get tons of use without them, anyway. Also, sometimes they are fine and completely benign. It's the ones that become a local "thing" and draw huge crowds as well as that have no consideration for the surrounding residences that are a problem. I love the sounds of daily life in China (even the occasional new business opening fireworks extravaganza at 7am, lol) but the noisiest of these dancing granny groups are really a bit much.
LurkingPenguin 5y ago
> This is just one of the many reasons why Chinese cities are almost universally better than American cities (more walkable, better transit, easy navigation, more public spaces. Though they do love their super blocks). American cities aren't God's finest work, but I'm curious: have you actually spent any time in Chinese cities and if you have, how much time have you spent in second and third-tier cities? > ...you get exercise... Exercising in toxic air is of dubious benefit.
OneTimePetes 5y ago
These are not ordinary old people. These are the old red guard, the lost generation. They ruled the streets, they do not abide to any law but there own in masses, but at gunpoint. This is the outcome of a horrific social experiment gone bad and it will renovate its flat at 3 in the morning with jackhammers, not giving a shit about your sleep. They will dance the night through, in the midst of the city. Your sleep be damned. This device is a god send.
temp8964 5y ago
It is so impressive that you can pull something totally negative to a positive direction. Do you work for a PR team? Or a propaganda department? Chinese cities have much much less park spaces compared to the US. This is one reason for this to happen. Another reason is the Red Guard generation does not care about the concept that you should not annoy other people in a civil society. Another reason is that religion is severely suppressed by the CCP, so those retired people have nothing to do and no community at home.
- smorgusofborg 5y ago
  > Chinese cities have much much less park spaces compared to the US. This is one reason for this to happen. Yes, but isn't the soccer style sport the anti-social behavior as far as space usage is concerned? A future generation of retired soccer players not limited by the one-child policy wouldn't need any other groups to fight with over land use.
AlbertCory 5y ago
This is the first I've heard this, but I live in a heavily Chinese part of Northern California. The parks have very small groups of Chinese women dancing in the mornings, but that's it. It sounds like it's a much bigger thing in China. Taking over the basketball courts? Wow. My feeling is, it's harmless here. I wouldn't presume to tell the Chinese what they ought to do about it over there.
mindtricks 5y ago
We lack public dancing space, yes, but the US typically has a lot of space open for exercise, although not in the same manner. In almost every town and city you'll find basketball courts, baseball fields, high school football stadiums with tracks typically open (and available) around them. It's organized in a different way and promotes different types of social interactions, but that's more a result of underlying desire for sprawl...which is something China can't afford.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

The problem are the apartments around those squares, or even just near them. Noise pollution is a touchy subject in dense urban China, and sound carries very easily.

fxtentacle 5y ago

Unless, of course, you would like to sleep after 6 AM. Some of those grannies will compensate for their own hearing loss by making the music more noisy. When I was living in Vietnam and opened the window of my flat, I could sometimes here them from a park that was 3 side roads away. It must be genuinely painful for those that live above the park.

jjoonathan 5y ago
I heard a youtuber complaining about 11:30pm night owl grannies, so there's no escape.
jiminymcmoogley 5y ago
seems like some of these dancing grannies would do right to invest in a few pairs of wireless headphones.. maybe theres an initial embarassment hurdle to overcome but ive been to a "silent disco"-type event before and that quickly passes
- olyjohn 5y ago
  Funny, it mentions in the article that some of them have already done that...

dartharva 5y ago

From the article: >But neighbours complain it has gotten out of control, with competing groups blasting their music over each other in small areas, and bullying those who try to intervene. Viral videos and reports have shown the groups arguing and fighting with basketball players to take over their court, or, in one case, breaking into a football field and stopping the game to dance in the space, prompting a police response and arrests. >Some disputes have escalated to violence. >“Most of them are the products of the Red Guard era, they don’t respect society or the environment,” said a young Chinese resident of Guiyang, who did not want to be named. >“Square dancing is a problem left over from history. Many elderly people feel that the whole China is built by their generation. They have the absolute voice and status. We young people have done nothing, and of course are not qualified to question them.” >“I tried to communicate with them once, but the police stopped me,” said the Guiyang man. “They thought I was going to do something bad. You know the golden rule of Chinese policy: the larger number of people matters. Everything is based on social maintenance.” Hardly sounds like a "really good" part of culture to me.

Barrin92 5y ago
you can argue whether they maybe should tone down the noise a little but the health benefits, both physical and social as well as even the capital benefits, from the article: "China is home to an estimated 100 million dancing grannies. Square dancing allows older women, many of whom live alone or with younger family members who they accompanied on a move to the cities, to socialise. They form strong bonds, often shopping or doing other activities, including group investments, together, the South China Morning Post reported" are most likely very, very high and almost certainly underestimated. The kind of social security that comes out of having these kinds of relations well into old age probably saves society an incalculable amount of resources compared to the risk of social and financial isolation if these women could not meet. Maybe find a way to make the grannies a little less militant but you would be straight up foolish to not encourage the elderly to socialize.
- dartharva 5y ago
  >the health benefits, both physical and social as well as even the capital benefits, are most likely very, very high and almost certainly underestimated. I'd argue it's you who's underestimating the social and capital damage those gangs of elderly people hogging public places can cause to the working population. It's apparent that had it been youngsters stirring up such racket in the name of "social benefits", they would have promptly been squashed. You can't just go and disturb and/or deny access to public places to other people just because you need to "socialize", it's just unfair.

duxup 5y ago

That's an interesting POV. In the US my local parks and public spaces have exercise groups (of all sorts), music events, kids activates, farmer's markets, ... events OFTEN. The fact that there is so much space might make it seem like some are empty, but there's always something going on near me. But it's almost never with loud music outside the dedicated music events that have spaces for just that.

b112 5y ago
Loud music isn't a perquisite to gather and do things. Unless you are the dancing grannies, apparently.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  Right, and therein lies the probable answer -- regulate the noise level.
- OneTimePetes 5y ago
  cheap headphones for everyone, plus syncing app?
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Retekess-Portable-Earphone-Digital-Rechargeable/dp/B019BYBR48 https://www.amazon.com/Retekess-Portable-Earphone-Digital-Re... And a FM transmitter is what I would go for.
ecshafer 5y ago
I see events often as well, but in China its more like I saw these events in public squares, constantly. People dancing, or exercising, or playing badminton in pretty large groups. Its not there's a few events a week, like in the US. Its there are multiple events a day.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

vmception 5y ago

okay interesting observation, but why is the device bad?

ecshafer 5y ago
I personally believe that interfering with people socializing and building a community is a negative. I concede that there can be issues with some events. But these are people who are a little loud, and is ruining many people's enjoyment for one person's enjoyment.
- toomanyrichies 5y ago
  You could make the same argument about noisy neighbors having house parties late at night. Does their right to play loud music supersede the neighborhood's right to a good night's sleep? There are many ways to socialize and build community. Why do they need to pick this specific way?
- alpaca128 5y ago
  Sleep is not about enjoyment, it is one of the most important influences on long-term health. Even more important than "a little loud" music and dancing at a time others want to rest. From all I've heard the chinese work week is challenging enough as it is, even without noise pollution on top.

thieving_magpie 5y ago

>US really underutilizes public spaces and many things become a financial transaction I cannot understand the underutilization of public spaces. That's very far from my experiences but it may just be regional. I have no idea what you mean about "many things become a financial transaction".

ecshafer 5y ago
A huge amount of things in the US seem to be go somewhere and pay money to use the space. Whether its taking a class somewhere, a gym, going to a mall/store. Even then outside a few major cities, most places you need to drive to public places.
- micromacrofoot 5y ago
  I feel like part of this is the ability to exclude others; ironically exclusion (or exclusivity) seems to be an important part of the American identity. I had hosted a birthday party at a public park at one point, and one of the parents had asked me if I was worried about other people being there.
  - NoGravitas 5y ago
    In the US, we have a problem of "drained pool" politics[1], where white people will vote to take away public amenities (like the eponymous public swimming pools) from themselves, because they can no longer exclude Black people from them. [1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/16/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-heather-mcghee.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/16/opinion/ezra-klein-podcas...
- vel0city 5y ago
  I mean, some of the US is like that. Other parts of the US, like where I live, have some pretty good public spaces available. I've got a park down the street with soccer fields, baseball and softball fields, a half court basketball setup, a fishing pond, picnic tables at the edge of some woods with grills, multiple playgrounds focusing on different kids ages/sizes/abilities. I can hop on a bus near my home and go to the larger sports complex with fancier fields and more organized teams, or the recreation centers with gymnasiums, board games to check out, tennis courts, waterparks, hobby meetings, etc. I see people using these facilities a good bit, there's usually people walking the trails around the parks, children playing on the playgrounds, people hanging out around the picnic tables, the pool and waterpark facilities get crowded at times. And then I can hop on the train and take it downtown to all the parks and other resources available there. And I live in a suburb! Lots of people in the US who feel there are no public city services often just don't realize the services their city already provides or are unaware of how to use them. Even in my city which has absolutely wonderful city services, I often find friends and neighbors completely unaware of the things which exist. We have busses running all over my town but I imagine if you asked any random person if they knew any local bus route they would have no idea where to even begin.

gaoshan 5y ago

In theory you are right but the reality of these dancing grannies is that they can be loud as hell. Like, disturbingly loud over a huge area and the noise pollution they introduce can be bad even by China's fairly noisy urban environments. Public spaces get tons of use without them, anyway. Also, sometimes they are fine and completely benign. It's the ones that become a local "thing" and draw huge crowds as well as that have no consideration for the surrounding residences that are a problem. I love the sounds of daily life in China (even the occasional new business opening fireworks extravaganza at 7am, lol) but the noisiest of these dancing granny groups are really a bit much.

LurkingPenguin 5y ago

> This is just one of the many reasons why Chinese cities are almost universally better than American cities (more walkable, better transit, easy navigation, more public spaces. Though they do love their super blocks). American cities aren't God's finest work, but I'm curious: have you actually spent any time in Chinese cities and if you have, how much time have you spent in second and third-tier cities? > ...you get exercise... Exercising in toxic air is of dubious benefit.

OneTimePetes 5y ago

These are not ordinary old people. These are the old red guard, the lost generation. They ruled the streets, they do not abide to any law but there own in masses, but at gunpoint. This is the outcome of a horrific social experiment gone bad and it will renovate its flat at 3 in the morning with jackhammers, not giving a shit about your sleep. They will dance the night through, in the midst of the city. Your sleep be damned. This device is a god send.

temp8964 5y ago

It is so impressive that you can pull something totally negative to a positive direction. Do you work for a PR team? Or a propaganda department? Chinese cities have much much less park spaces compared to the US. This is one reason for this to happen. Another reason is the Red Guard generation does not care about the concept that you should not annoy other people in a civil society. Another reason is that religion is severely suppressed by the CCP, so those retired people have nothing to do and no community at home.

smorgusofborg 5y ago
> Chinese cities have much much less park spaces compared to the US. This is one reason for this to happen. Yes, but isn't the soccer style sport the anti-social behavior as far as space usage is concerned? A future generation of retired soccer players not limited by the one-child policy wouldn't need any other groups to fight with over land use.

AlbertCory 5y ago

This is the first I've heard this, but I live in a heavily Chinese part of Northern California. The parks have very small groups of Chinese women dancing in the mornings, but that's it. It sounds like it's a much bigger thing in China. Taking over the basketball courts? Wow. My feeling is, it's harmless here. I wouldn't presume to tell the Chinese what they ought to do about it over there.

mindtricks 5y ago

We lack public dancing space, yes, but the US typically has a lot of space open for exercise, although not in the same manner. In almost every town and city you'll find basketball courts, baseball fields, high school football stadiums with tracks typically open (and available) around them. It's organized in a different way and promotes different types of social interactions, but that's more a result of underlying desire for sprawl...which is something China can't afford.