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There is currently a major outage at a major part of the infrastructure of our nation, and nobody believes anybody about why. The airline is saying it's someth

There is currently a major outage at a major part of the infrastructure of our nation, and nobody believes anybody about why. The airline is saying it's something to do with weather, but somehow they're the only airline effected. Everybody online seems to the think it's some sort of labor strike, but the union denies this and nobody can find anywhere where people are planning this. And yet thousands of people are stuck in airports all over the country right now. It just seems like something is going on, and that everybody is lying about it. Can't say I've ever really seen anything like this, and it genuinely freaks me out.

EricE 5y ago
It's a cluster of factors - the primary one being a lack of a bench of backup pilots - compounded by layoffs during COVID and now an inability to ramp up training to get pilots re-certified and re-hired: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO39nIcuPhQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO39nIcuPhQ COVID vaccine shenanigans with a large chunk of the workforce near retirement age and just saying "fuck your mandate, I'll retire early" is just the cherry on top.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
baggy_trough 5y ago
When a nation becomes dysfunctional enough, it’s no longer possible to tell the truth.
- pistol_pete 5y ago
  When a nation's media becomes convoluted enough, one might add
- dotancohen 5y ago
  My /. sig for years: > It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong. That said, I don't think that the government is wrong here.
  - roenxi 5y ago
    Well, the specific question that the government is answering is "should these people be employed if they make choices I disagree with". It is more borderline than it might appear at first blush. I'm not sure I can think of a precedent for being so willing to eject that many people from the workforce in such a way.
    - smt88 5y ago
      > should these people be employed if they make choices I disagree with This is a disingenuous way to frame it. The current govt is anti-Nazi, but it's never tried to mandate that all employees found to be Nazis must be fired. The reason vaccines are an issue of employment (only at larger employers, by the way) is that unvaccinated people endanger their coworkers. People have a right to be unvaccinated, and the rest of us have a right to protect ourselves from them.
      - EricE 5y ago
        >People have a right to be unvaccinated, and the rest of us have a right to protect ourselves from them. If your vaccinated and have the protection, what's the real issue? If you want to go down the whole "protection" rabbit hole - and ostensibly I'm going to assume you mean protection from exposure to the virus, then the vaccinated are far more of a problem. An unvaccinated person can not shed (spread) the virus unless they are symptomatic - ie. have a fever. Checking for a fever is trivial to do in a non-invasive way. Vaccinated people can not only be carrying but shedding (spreading) the virus while showing zero symptoms. So the only way to tell if a vaccinated person is a potential super spreader is through testing - that is neither as quick or easy as just taking someone's fever. An utter 180 from your position. If anyone is concerned about protection from exposure, you would be looking at protection from the vaccinated - not the unvaccinated!
      - roenxi 5y ago
        That isn't true. There are a lot of unvaccinated people - notably any that have recovered from COVID - who pose less danger to their coworkers than someone who has only been vaccinated. This isn't based on risk assessment, this is based on ideology. There are situations developing where someone who is less likely to transmit COVID is being fired while someone more likely to transmit the disease is kept on - and everyone involved in the process knows it.
lettergram 5y ago
Who is John Galt?
donw 5y ago
This is the most objective summary I have read on this situation. Bravo.
downandout 5y ago
The most likely explanation is here [1]. Pilots (and apparently some air traffic controllers) are doing a sickout to protest vaccine mandates, presumably to make the powers that be understand just how difficult they can make things for the country if they proceed with intended mass firings. But the sickout is technically illegal, so nobody will acknowledge it. That is why you won't see a clear explanation of this incident - probably ever. You've never seen anything like it because we have never been in a situation where a significant percentage of the population is being threatened with the loss of their livelihood unless they take something that many consider to be quite dangerous. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28824370 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28824370 Edit: deleted link to tweet, comment below points out that it was from a suspect Twitter account.
- twofornone 5y ago
  The downvotes on this site have gotten insane. This is a perfectly rational comment. Whether you agree with them or not, just burying your hand and refusing to acknowledge that a nontrivial percentage of workers oppose mandates is just asinine. Boneheaded authoritarianism. If you ever wondered how horrors like the soviet union and nazi germany are possible, take a look at the religious groupthink that has seemingly consumed multiple first world democracies, over a virus with a 99% survival rate. Suddenly americans are cheering on censorship and authoritarianism and refuse to question their mass hysteria; it's high time you paused and asked yourselves if you're the baddies.
  - downandout 5y ago
    Exactly this. I wasn't rendering any opinion on the vaccine, I was simply stating that many people consider it to be dangerous and/or unnecessary, which is why some are pushing back. Others are simply against the mandates and not the vaccines. Regardless, some people are apparently very upset, given that a big chunk of our nation's transportation infrastructure is currently not operating.
  - nemothekid 5y ago
    [flagged]
melomal 5y ago
If it's a strike then it 9 times out of 10 means the airline will have to payout for delayed and cancelled flights. I would imagine they are trying to spin this every which way possible to eliminate the inevitable bill that will need to be paid. Financials are probably out of whack too since covid so this situation could really cripple/break them.
miles 5y ago
Southwest Airlines, passengers claim different causes for cancellations https://www.khou.com/article/news/national/southwest-airlines-cancels-1000-more-flights-across-the-us/285-db1312c2-e656-41b3-8da8-54678755f5d0 https://www.khou.com/article/news/national/southwest-airline... > The nationwide cancellations came as the airline announced Monday that the company will now require employees to get the COVID-19 vaccinated by Dec. 8. > Some customers said they were told the cancellations are a direct result of the vaccine mandate. > “I asked them specifically 'is this about weather' – because if it’s about weather, they can deny compensation. They said 'no, it’s not about weather.' I said 'is this about maintenance?' They said 'no, it’s not about maintenance.' I said then 'what is the problem?'" passenger Ron Frank said. “They said this is all because of the vaccine mandate. They said we had a massive walkout. They also said that air traffic control had a massive walkout because of the vaccine mandate. But to couch 1,000 cancelations because of a thunderstorm somewhere is not believable.”
- drfxyjhdyfrhgc 5y ago
  Why downvote a link to a local news outlet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KHOU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KHOU
  - polartx 5y ago
    Bullet, meet messenger. I was, at first, very skeptical that so many people would walk out of the their jobs in a seemingly organized way, until I heard about the PTO angle of the story. I work at a company with “unlimited PTO” (because business leaders learned that they pay less with “unlimited” than they do with accrued). But in previous jobs, it was very common to accrue PTO (up to 2 to 3 weeks worth). Most employees would find it hard to get coverage or approval for taking time off, so their PTO would accrue until it maxed out. Anytime I was going to leave a job where I had banked PTO, I would take my time off, and then resign when I came back because if you leave with accrued PTO, they would pay it out, taxed as supplemental income, which is at a higher rate. 3 weeks is a common max accrual for folks that have worked somewhere longer than a year or two, and looking at the calendar, we’re almost exactly 3 weeks from November. These workers are getting (PTO) paid to strike, plus they’re not breaking any rules, or committing to resigning (or being terminated due to COVID policy), yet. Three weeks to take a much needed break, speak their values, and not miss a check? Now that sounds more like human behavior.
satokema 5y ago
media blackout.
syshum 5y ago
They blame the weather or ATAC because then they do not have to issue refunds or pay for hotels if its internal mismanagement then they do, as always follow the money.....
nemo44x 5y ago
Seems like it’s a “wildcat strike” where some employees organize and strike silently without the consent or direction of their union.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  This kind of subverts union leadership though. How can the union leadership negotiate in good faith when there's no evidence that they are in a position to control or act on behalf of members? Then again, I think it's technically illegal for members of the airline industry to actively strike. So maybe this is how it's done for plausible deniability sake.
- q1w2 5y ago
  The rumors are that it's due to the employee covid vaccine mandate.
  - nemo44x 5y ago
    I think that's the reason for the wildcat strike - the union won't abide by it so a group of pilots who don't want the vaccine are not working to make their point to management. It's all hearsay though.

EricE 5y ago

It's a cluster of factors - the primary one being a lack of a bench of backup pilots - compounded by layoffs during COVID and now an inability to ramp up training to get pilots re-certified and re-hired: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO39nIcuPhQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO39nIcuPhQ COVID vaccine shenanigans with a large chunk of the workforce near retirement age and just saying "fuck your mandate, I'll retire early" is just the cherry on top.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

baggy_trough 5y ago

When a nation becomes dysfunctional enough, it’s no longer possible to tell the truth.

pistol_pete 5y ago
When a nation's media becomes convoluted enough, one might add
dotancohen 5y ago
My /. sig for years: > It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong. That said, I don't think that the government is wrong here.
- roenxi 5y ago
  Well, the specific question that the government is answering is "should these people be employed if they make choices I disagree with". It is more borderline than it might appear at first blush. I'm not sure I can think of a precedent for being so willing to eject that many people from the workforce in such a way.
  - smt88 5y ago
    > should these people be employed if they make choices I disagree with This is a disingenuous way to frame it. The current govt is anti-Nazi, but it's never tried to mandate that all employees found to be Nazis must be fired. The reason vaccines are an issue of employment (only at larger employers, by the way) is that unvaccinated people endanger their coworkers. People have a right to be unvaccinated, and the rest of us have a right to protect ourselves from them.
    - EricE 5y ago
      >People have a right to be unvaccinated, and the rest of us have a right to protect ourselves from them. If your vaccinated and have the protection, what's the real issue? If you want to go down the whole "protection" rabbit hole - and ostensibly I'm going to assume you mean protection from exposure to the virus, then the vaccinated are far more of a problem. An unvaccinated person can not shed (spread) the virus unless they are symptomatic - ie. have a fever. Checking for a fever is trivial to do in a non-invasive way. Vaccinated people can not only be carrying but shedding (spreading) the virus while showing zero symptoms. So the only way to tell if a vaccinated person is a potential super spreader is through testing - that is neither as quick or easy as just taking someone's fever. An utter 180 from your position. If anyone is concerned about protection from exposure, you would be looking at protection from the vaccinated - not the unvaccinated!
    - roenxi 5y ago
      That isn't true. There are a lot of unvaccinated people - notably any that have recovered from COVID - who pose less danger to their coworkers than someone who has only been vaccinated. This isn't based on risk assessment, this is based on ideology. There are situations developing where someone who is less likely to transmit COVID is being fired while someone more likely to transmit the disease is kept on - and everyone involved in the process knows it.

lettergram 5y ago

Who is John Galt?

donw 5y ago

This is the most objective summary I have read on this situation. Bravo.

downandout 5y ago

The most likely explanation is here [1]. Pilots (and apparently some air traffic controllers) are doing a sickout to protest vaccine mandates, presumably to make the powers that be understand just how difficult they can make things for the country if they proceed with intended mass firings. But the sickout is technically illegal, so nobody will acknowledge it. That is why you won't see a clear explanation of this incident - probably ever. You've never seen anything like it because we have never been in a situation where a significant percentage of the population is being threatened with the loss of their livelihood unless they take something that many consider to be quite dangerous. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28824370 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28824370 Edit: deleted link to tweet, comment below points out that it was from a suspect Twitter account.

twofornone 5y ago
The downvotes on this site have gotten insane. This is a perfectly rational comment. Whether you agree with them or not, just burying your hand and refusing to acknowledge that a nontrivial percentage of workers oppose mandates is just asinine. Boneheaded authoritarianism. If you ever wondered how horrors like the soviet union and nazi germany are possible, take a look at the religious groupthink that has seemingly consumed multiple first world democracies, over a virus with a 99% survival rate. Suddenly americans are cheering on censorship and authoritarianism and refuse to question their mass hysteria; it's high time you paused and asked yourselves if you're the baddies.
- downandout 5y ago
  Exactly this. I wasn't rendering any opinion on the vaccine, I was simply stating that many people consider it to be dangerous and/or unnecessary, which is why some are pushing back. Others are simply against the mandates and not the vaccines. Regardless, some people are apparently very upset, given that a big chunk of our nation's transportation infrastructure is currently not operating.
- nemothekid 5y ago
  [flagged]

melomal 5y ago

If it's a strike then it 9 times out of 10 means the airline will have to payout for delayed and cancelled flights. I would imagine they are trying to spin this every which way possible to eliminate the inevitable bill that will need to be paid. Financials are probably out of whack too since covid so this situation could really cripple/break them.

miles 5y ago

Southwest Airlines, passengers claim different causes for cancellations https://www.khou.com/article/news/national/southwest-airlines-cancels-1000-more-flights-across-the-us/285-db1312c2-e656-41b3-8da8-54678755f5d0 https://www.khou.com/article/news/national/southwest-airline... > The nationwide cancellations came as the airline announced Monday that the company will now require employees to get the COVID-19 vaccinated by Dec. 8. > Some customers said they were told the cancellations are a direct result of the vaccine mandate. > “I asked them specifically 'is this about weather' – because if it’s about weather, they can deny compensation. They said 'no, it’s not about weather.' I said 'is this about maintenance?' They said 'no, it’s not about maintenance.' I said then 'what is the problem?'" passenger Ron Frank said. “They said this is all because of the vaccine mandate. They said we had a massive walkout. They also said that air traffic control had a massive walkout because of the vaccine mandate. But to couch 1,000 cancelations because of a thunderstorm somewhere is not believable.”

drfxyjhdyfrhgc 5y ago
Why downvote a link to a local news outlet? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KHOU https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KHOU
- polartx 5y ago
  Bullet, meet messenger. I was, at first, very skeptical that so many people would walk out of the their jobs in a seemingly organized way, until I heard about the PTO angle of the story. I work at a company with “unlimited PTO” (because business leaders learned that they pay less with “unlimited” than they do with accrued). But in previous jobs, it was very common to accrue PTO (up to 2 to 3 weeks worth). Most employees would find it hard to get coverage or approval for taking time off, so their PTO would accrue until it maxed out. Anytime I was going to leave a job where I had banked PTO, I would take my time off, and then resign when I came back because if you leave with accrued PTO, they would pay it out, taxed as supplemental income, which is at a higher rate. 3 weeks is a common max accrual for folks that have worked somewhere longer than a year or two, and looking at the calendar, we’re almost exactly 3 weeks from November. These workers are getting (PTO) paid to strike, plus they’re not breaking any rules, or committing to resigning (or being terminated due to COVID policy), yet. Three weeks to take a much needed break, speak their values, and not miss a check? Now that sounds more like human behavior.

satokema 5y ago

media blackout.

syshum 5y ago

They blame the weather or ATAC because then they do not have to issue refunds or pay for hotels if its internal mismanagement then they do, as always follow the money.....

nemo44x 5y ago

Seems like it’s a “wildcat strike” where some employees organize and strike silently without the consent or direction of their union.

mywittyname 5y ago
This kind of subverts union leadership though. How can the union leadership negotiate in good faith when there's no evidence that they are in a position to control or act on behalf of members? Then again, I think it's technically illegal for members of the airline industry to actively strike. So maybe this is how it's done for plausible deniability sake.
q1w2 5y ago
The rumors are that it's due to the employee covid vaccine mandate.
- nemo44x 5y ago
  I think that's the reason for the wildcat strike - the union won't abide by it so a group of pilots who don't want the vaccine are not working to make their point to management. It's all hearsay though.