8 ms·

Doesn’t add up. Severe weather and military training in the same airspace? Other airlines not affected? Odd to say the least.

TMWNN 5y ago
To me, >Online speculation that Southwest’s new vaccine mandate has led pilots to stage a sickout is being denied by the union representing Southwest pilots. >That follows reporting on social media that some of the issues the airline is suffering could be related to that issue. A spokesperson for the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (SWAPA) told the Arizona Republic it was not aware of any work stoppage and wouldn’t condone it anyway. >SWAPA, however, has authorized its members to demonstrate against the mandate. sounds like there is a vaccine mandate-related sickout going on, and the union is unofficially encouraging it but doesn't want to be seen as doing so. I don't know why that would be the case; there's no law against airline employees doing an industrial action. Maybe the union doesn't want to be denounced for being allegedly "anti-science"?
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  If this is the result of a sickout, I assume the current administration could direct the Dept of Defense to make military pilots available to Southwest in the event of an extended availability issue with their union pilots. Not as brutal as Reagan breaking the ATC union, but supporting a common carrier in a time of crisis. I don’t believe a federal case has been heard yet where the vaccine mandate or terminating those refusing it has been found unlawful.
  - cryptoanon25490 5y ago
    Military pilots for commercial airlines. Military personnel in hospitals. When do we get military teachers and military politicians?
    - esrauch 5y ago
      There already was National Guard diving school buses too.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      We have always had military politicians. Military politicians are older than humankind itself.
      - vxNsr 5y ago
        > Military politicians are older than humankind itself. Just curious, is this just hyperbole or do you have an actual example? ETA: I mean the "older than humankind itself" part. Like what does that mean in this context?
        AceyMan 5y ago
        OTTOMH, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi?wprov=sfla1
        vxNsr 5y ago
        I meant the older than humankind part, obviously there are many humans throughout history who were both military generals and political leaders.
        alanbernstein 5y ago
        Maybe a group of apes led by (political) the strongest one (military)?
        thaumasiotes 5y ago
        Groups of chimpanzees are often led by the strongest one. They are also often not led by the strongest one - you can take over the group by forming a coalition to depose the current leader. Then you fight him.
  - AndrewBissell 5y ago
    > I assume the current administration could direct the Dept of Defense to make military pilots available to Southwest Yeah just have them switch to a completely different type of aircraft without getting trained or checked out at all, this will definitely fix the problem in short order.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Yeah just have them switch to a completely different type of aircraft without getting trained or checked out at all Southwest’s fleet is all 737s; is this really a different type from the C-40?
      - edoceo 5y ago
        Oh my yes.
        edoceo 5y ago
        Am I wrong? Those instrument clusters are like Java and JavaScript
      - nradov 5y ago
        The military only has a small number of pilots trained on the C-40, and they're needed for actual military operations. Even with basic type familiarity, every airline has it's own unique operating procedures and so new pilots always have to pass an extensive training program including classes, simulator time, and rides with check pilots. This is mandatory for safety. No legitimate airline would take shortcuts there just because of a temporary crew shortage. If a Southwest flight crashed because the Captain and First Officer weren't following identical checklist procedures in an emergency that would be far worse than cancelling a bunch of flights. A fairly high percentage of airline pilots are also part time pilots in the National Guard or Reserves, so they may be simultaneously rated for a certain airliner type as well as a military aircraft. But that doesn't really help for this situation.
      - laverya 5y ago
        28 C-40s built, ever [0]. Southwest has 737 737s in service [1]. (also, lol at the coincidental number) There's 91 P-8s [2] in USN service, but still not really enough to make up the shortfall. 165 737NGs delivered in military configurations worldwide, according to [3]. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_C-40_Clipper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_C-40_Clipper 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_fleet#Current_fleet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_fleet#Curre... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_United_States_military_aircraft#Navy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_United_States_m... 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_Next_Generation#Orders_and_deliveries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_Next_Generation#Ord...
  - jhugo 5y ago
    How many military pilots do you think have a current type rating on the 737? The C-40 pilots could probably transition quickly but there's only 28 C-40s in the US fleet so probably not enough pilots to make a realistic difference. This isn't just a case of paperwork, either. A pilot can't safely operate a completely different type without training. Even if you expedite it, it's likely that resolving the industrial action will take less time.
  - babyshake 5y ago
    I don't think vaccine mandates should be unlawful from private companies, but IMO it would be better if they gave a choice between a vaccine and having a recent test. If you need a vaccine or a negative test administered in the last 72 hours to attend work, it's very inconvenient to choose the test route but at least employees wouldn't be able to make the argument that they are being "forced" to get the vaccine.
    - michaelmrose 5y ago
      The rapid test isn't very accurate especially in the absence of a full blown infection. The annual cost of doing a PCR test twice a week to ensure you always have an actually accurate test within 72 hours of working would be around $15,600. This is about 43% of the gross individual median income. For practical purposes employers can't afford to pay near 50% more for the least reasonable employees, the government isn't incentivized to do so to make it easier not to vaccinate when this is really a poor substitute insofar as public health, and only the minority of employees can afford this. In effect the end result of a practical testing alternative is to pretend we are giving them a choice while in fact giving them little choice.
      - pyronik19 5y ago
        % chance of having covid * % chance of being asymptomatic * the % chance of the test failing * % chance that you transmit it to someone who is vaccinated * % chance they actually become sick..... this is one figleaf of an excuse for these mandates
        michaelmrose 5y ago
        Such chances are cumulative over time and number of unvaccinated coworkers. Given a large body of unvaccinated there is no reason to suppose that the chance of infection doesn't continue over many years and approach 1 over multiple years. I and a lot of others don't accept any reasonable chance that you are going to kill me or my family members at work today.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    > I assume the current administration could direct the Dept of Defense to make military pilots available to Southwest in the event of an extended availability issue with their union pilots. No, they could not, not without a wholesale reworking of the entire FAA. Pilots are trained and certified on individual airplanes; even highly experienced pilots need retraining in order to safely fly a new aircraft. Shoving a bunch of military pilots into 737s is both highly illegal, and would probably result in some plane crashes.
    - speedybird 5y ago
      I mean, how many P-8 pilots does the navy have? A P-8 is a 737NG.
      - ashtonkem 5y ago
        They might have enough, there are 122 P-8s in service, and surely the Navy has > 1 pilot per P-8. I can’t speak to any material differences between the P-8 and the civilian 737, but legally this still seems problematic. The DoD isn’t required to type certify their aircraft, and it doesn’t look like the P-8 or the C-40 (also a 737) are type certified as a 737, which means their pilots probably can’t legally fly a 737 civilian model. I could be wrong though, the FAA’s website is hard to navigate.
sp332 5y ago
According to an analyst that CBS talked to https://www.cbsnews.com/news/southwest-flight-cancellations-weekend-2021-10-10/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/southwest-flight-cancellations-... Southwest was hit harder because of they way they organize their routes. Not having "hubs" means they can't create alternate routes quickly. So the delays in Florida cascaded back, stranding planes and crews as well as passengers. He also says they'd already scheduled more flights than they can handle, but I don't know exactly what that means.
- hnburnsy 5y ago
  This has always been the case with Southwest not anything new. Without late night flights they should be able to reset. Something else is going on. Additionally with many similar aircraft and oy one class of service, substituting equipment is much easier for Southwest than traditional carriers.
- edoceo 5y ago
  > more flights than they can handle More flights than pilots. Like when your PM brings in work from the previous sprint, to the current, fully loaded sprint.
  - C19is20 5y ago
    PM = Past Master? And, tbf, i got it as i hit the 'equals' sign.

TMWNN 5y ago

To me, >Online speculation that Southwest’s new vaccine mandate has led pilots to stage a sickout is being denied by the union representing Southwest pilots. >That follows reporting on social media that some of the issues the airline is suffering could be related to that issue. A spokesperson for the Southwest Airlines Pilots Association (SWAPA) told the Arizona Republic it was not aware of any work stoppage and wouldn’t condone it anyway. >SWAPA, however, has authorized its members to demonstrate against the mandate. sounds like there is a vaccine mandate-related sickout going on, and the union is unofficially encouraging it but doesn't want to be seen as doing so. I don't know why that would be the case; there's no law against airline employees doing an industrial action. Maybe the union doesn't want to be denounced for being allegedly "anti-science"?

toomuchtodo 5y ago
If this is the result of a sickout, I assume the current administration could direct the Dept of Defense to make military pilots available to Southwest in the event of an extended availability issue with their union pilots. Not as brutal as Reagan breaking the ATC union, but supporting a common carrier in a time of crisis. I don’t believe a federal case has been heard yet where the vaccine mandate or terminating those refusing it has been found unlawful.
- cryptoanon25490 5y ago
  Military pilots for commercial airlines. Military personnel in hospitals. When do we get military teachers and military politicians?
  - esrauch 5y ago
    There already was National Guard diving school buses too.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    We have always had military politicians. Military politicians are older than humankind itself.
    - vxNsr 5y ago
      > Military politicians are older than humankind itself. Just curious, is this just hyperbole or do you have an actual example? ETA: I mean the "older than humankind itself" part. Like what does that mean in this context?
      - AceyMan 5y ago
        OTTOMH, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi?wprov=sfla1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muammar_Gaddafi?wprov=sfla1
        vxNsr 5y ago
        I meant the older than humankind part, obviously there are many humans throughout history who were both military generals and political leaders.
      - alanbernstein 5y ago
        Maybe a group of apes led by (political) the strongest one (military)?
        thaumasiotes 5y ago
        Groups of chimpanzees are often led by the strongest one. They are also often not led by the strongest one - you can take over the group by forming a coalition to depose the current leader. Then you fight him.
- AndrewBissell 5y ago
  > I assume the current administration could direct the Dept of Defense to make military pilots available to Southwest Yeah just have them switch to a completely different type of aircraft without getting trained or checked out at all, this will definitely fix the problem in short order.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Yeah just have them switch to a completely different type of aircraft without getting trained or checked out at all Southwest’s fleet is all 737s; is this really a different type from the C-40?
    - edoceo 5y ago
      Oh my yes.
      - edoceo 5y ago
        Am I wrong? Those instrument clusters are like Java and JavaScript
    - nradov 5y ago
      The military only has a small number of pilots trained on the C-40, and they're needed for actual military operations. Even with basic type familiarity, every airline has it's own unique operating procedures and so new pilots always have to pass an extensive training program including classes, simulator time, and rides with check pilots. This is mandatory for safety. No legitimate airline would take shortcuts there just because of a temporary crew shortage. If a Southwest flight crashed because the Captain and First Officer weren't following identical checklist procedures in an emergency that would be far worse than cancelling a bunch of flights. A fairly high percentage of airline pilots are also part time pilots in the National Guard or Reserves, so they may be simultaneously rated for a certain airliner type as well as a military aircraft. But that doesn't really help for this situation.
    - laverya 5y ago
      28 C-40s built, ever [0]. Southwest has 737 737s in service [1]. (also, lol at the coincidental number) There's 91 P-8s [2] in USN service, but still not really enough to make up the shortfall. 165 737NGs delivered in military configurations worldwide, according to [3]. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_C-40_Clipper https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_C-40_Clipper 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_fleet#Current_fleet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Airlines_fleet#Curre... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_United_States_military_aircraft#Navy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_United_States_m... 3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_Next_Generation#Orders_and_deliveries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_Next_Generation#Ord...
- jhugo 5y ago
  How many military pilots do you think have a current type rating on the 737? The C-40 pilots could probably transition quickly but there's only 28 C-40s in the US fleet so probably not enough pilots to make a realistic difference. This isn't just a case of paperwork, either. A pilot can't safely operate a completely different type without training. Even if you expedite it, it's likely that resolving the industrial action will take less time.
- babyshake 5y ago
  I don't think vaccine mandates should be unlawful from private companies, but IMO it would be better if they gave a choice between a vaccine and having a recent test. If you need a vaccine or a negative test administered in the last 72 hours to attend work, it's very inconvenient to choose the test route but at least employees wouldn't be able to make the argument that they are being "forced" to get the vaccine.
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    The rapid test isn't very accurate especially in the absence of a full blown infection. The annual cost of doing a PCR test twice a week to ensure you always have an actually accurate test within 72 hours of working would be around $15,600. This is about 43% of the gross individual median income. For practical purposes employers can't afford to pay near 50% more for the least reasonable employees, the government isn't incentivized to do so to make it easier not to vaccinate when this is really a poor substitute insofar as public health, and only the minority of employees can afford this. In effect the end result of a practical testing alternative is to pretend we are giving them a choice while in fact giving them little choice.
    - pyronik19 5y ago
      % chance of having covid * % chance of being asymptomatic * the % chance of the test failing * % chance that you transmit it to someone who is vaccinated * % chance they actually become sick..... this is one figleaf of an excuse for these mandates
      - michaelmrose 5y ago
        Such chances are cumulative over time and number of unvaccinated coworkers. Given a large body of unvaccinated there is no reason to suppose that the chance of infection doesn't continue over many years and approach 1 over multiple years. I and a lot of others don't accept any reasonable chance that you are going to kill me or my family members at work today.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  > I assume the current administration could direct the Dept of Defense to make military pilots available to Southwest in the event of an extended availability issue with their union pilots. No, they could not, not without a wholesale reworking of the entire FAA. Pilots are trained and certified on individual airplanes; even highly experienced pilots need retraining in order to safely fly a new aircraft. Shoving a bunch of military pilots into 737s is both highly illegal, and would probably result in some plane crashes.
  - speedybird 5y ago
    I mean, how many P-8 pilots does the navy have? A P-8 is a 737NG.
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      They might have enough, there are 122 P-8s in service, and surely the Navy has > 1 pilot per P-8. I can’t speak to any material differences between the P-8 and the civilian 737, but legally this still seems problematic. The DoD isn’t required to type certify their aircraft, and it doesn’t look like the P-8 or the C-40 (also a 737) are type certified as a 737, which means their pilots probably can’t legally fly a 737 civilian model. I could be wrong though, the FAA’s website is hard to navigate.

sp332 5y ago

According to an analyst that CBS talked to https://www.cbsnews.com/news/southwest-flight-cancellations-weekend-2021-10-10/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/southwest-flight-cancellations-... Southwest was hit harder because of they way they organize their routes. Not having "hubs" means they can't create alternate routes quickly. So the delays in Florida cascaded back, stranding planes and crews as well as passengers. He also says they'd already scheduled more flights than they can handle, but I don't know exactly what that means.

hnburnsy 5y ago
This has always been the case with Southwest not anything new. Without late night flights they should be able to reset. Something else is going on. Additionally with many similar aircraft and oy one class of service, substituting equipment is much easier for Southwest than traditional carriers.
edoceo 5y ago
> more flights than they can handle More flights than pilots. Like when your PM brings in work from the previous sprint, to the current, fully loaded sprint.
- C19is20 5y ago
  PM = Past Master? And, tbf, i got it as i hit the 'equals' sign.