5 ms·

And sometimes education comes from the rest of society saying “you are welcome to your beliefs, but not welcome to pollute my air at our workplace until you are

by generj 5y ago

And sometimes education comes from the rest of society saying “you are welcome to your beliefs, but not welcome to pollute my air at our workplace until you aren’t a danger to me.” We set the precedent for forced vaccination nearly a century ago. There is no slippery slope here, or at least if there is we already slid down the hill and are resting comfortably on flat ground.

sethammons 5y ago
From the article, among the points is that this is a slippery slope that led to uninformed sterilization of black and native people: > It is rarely acknowledged that this decision also made possible the Supreme Court’s ruling in the 1927 case of Buck v. Bell, in which the court determined: “The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes.” This ruling legitimized eugenics laws and led to 70,000 forced sterilizations in the United States Many people still don't trust forced medical proceedings.
- generj 5y ago
  That’s a fair point, and I hadn’t heard of that Supreme Court ruling. Without being too flippant, I believe the pro-Eugenics society the court came from would have found a way to twist any precedent or lack thereof to justify eugenics. Some of the same members of that court went on to sanction imprisonment and property theft from thousands of people without even the pretense of crime other than their race. I also want to point out the current rules (and what most ppl are advocating for) aren’t forced medical proceedings. Truly involuntarily medical proceedings have almost exclusively been abused. Everyone is free to not receive a vaccine, they just have some negative consequences for doing so. It turns out the inconvenience of not being able to go to a restaurant was hugely compelling in France, for instance. I’m sensitive to the fact that threats to livelihood don’t feel very voluntary. In the US, the threat to livelihood isn’t from the government. There is no national vaccine mandate - just an annoying testing mandate the vaccinated get to skip out on.
nradov 5y ago
I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but your comment makes no sense and presents a false choice. Vaccinated people can also pollute the air at your workspace and present a danger to you. There is only a limited and temporary reduction in risk of transmission. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y
- robomartin 5y ago
  Good article. Among other things, it highlights how much we still don't know about this mess. I like to always highlight not to reduce reality to a single variable, when the correct model contains so many we can't even enumerate them. I also try very hard not to be told what to think. This requires work. Sadly our society, perhaps fueled by social media, sees individuals who "know" the truth about all kinds of subjects. In quotes because, more often than not, what they believe is in a range between false, a fantasy or, at best, inaccurate or incomplete. We all know that the concept of vaccines (isolated from any particular event or case, just the idea) is good. From there to always religiously equate "vaccine" to "good" is a mistake. Even worse, label those who do not want to get vaccinated as stupid, well, to be kind, potentially uninformed. We need more conversation and less hatred. Issues rarely boil down to a single variable. Through conversation we often learn about the hundred or more we might have missed because we "know" the truth as it was told to us.

by generj 5y ago

sethammons 5y ago

From the article, among the points is that this is a slippery slope that led to uninformed sterilization of black and native people: > It is rarely acknowledged that this decision also made possible the Supreme Court’s ruling in the 1927 case of Buck v. Bell, in which the court determined: “The principle that sustains compulsory vaccination is broad enough to cover cutting the Fallopian tubes.” This ruling legitimized eugenics laws and led to 70,000 forced sterilizations in the United States Many people still don't trust forced medical proceedings.

generj 5y ago
That’s a fair point, and I hadn’t heard of that Supreme Court ruling. Without being too flippant, I believe the pro-Eugenics society the court came from would have found a way to twist any precedent or lack thereof to justify eugenics. Some of the same members of that court went on to sanction imprisonment and property theft from thousands of people without even the pretense of crime other than their race. I also want to point out the current rules (and what most ppl are advocating for) aren’t forced medical proceedings. Truly involuntarily medical proceedings have almost exclusively been abused. Everyone is free to not receive a vaccine, they just have some negative consequences for doing so. It turns out the inconvenience of not being able to go to a restaurant was hugely compelling in France, for instance. I’m sensitive to the fact that threats to livelihood don’t feel very voluntary. In the US, the threat to livelihood isn’t from the government. There is no national vaccine mandate - just an annoying testing mandate the vaccinated get to skip out on.

nradov 5y ago

I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but your comment makes no sense and presents a false choice. Vaccinated people can also pollute the air at your workspace and present a danger to you. There is only a limited and temporary reduction in risk of transmission. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y

robomartin 5y ago
Good article. Among other things, it highlights how much we still don't know about this mess. I like to always highlight not to reduce reality to a single variable, when the correct model contains so many we can't even enumerate them. I also try very hard not to be told what to think. This requires work. Sadly our society, perhaps fueled by social media, sees individuals who "know" the truth about all kinds of subjects. In quotes because, more often than not, what they believe is in a range between false, a fantasy or, at best, inaccurate or incomplete. We all know that the concept of vaccines (isolated from any particular event or case, just the idea) is good. From there to always religiously equate "vaccine" to "good" is a mistake. Even worse, label those who do not want to get vaccinated as stupid, well, to be kind, potentially uninformed. We need more conversation and less hatred. Issues rarely boil down to a single variable. Through conversation we often learn about the hundred or more we might have missed because we "know" the truth as it was told to us.