5 ms·

UI is a solved-problem from my point of view with middleware like Scaleform.

rdw 15y ago
Carmack is specifically talking about Scaleform, though! And he's not alone -- I know a few game developers who hate that thing with a passion because it's so slow that it's introduced noticeable performance problems in AAA games. Because he's clearly talking about ScaleForm/Flash specifically, though, I don't think that his comments can be correctly generalized to all "script interpreters". It's kind of the equivalent of buying a Maylong Android Tablet and going around saying that Android sucks or the tablet market is dead. You just happen to have picked the worst possible representative.
- barrettcolin 15y ago
  He may be referring to Scaleform (or another Flash GUI library; I don't think he specifies), but he's also talking about his experience with scripting in Doom 3- which I'm fairly sure didn't use Flash.
malkia 15y ago
You would also have to find flash-experienced people willing to work the way console game developers work. They actually might feel a little bit under appreciated for the stuff they do, and not feel very rewarding at work, especially when they have to constraint themselves with memory, cpu, gpu, i/o issues that might not be visible on the desktop. Also at some point certain integration between the engine and scaleform is needed, and you would have to lose a programmer there supporting it. We tried it, and the consensus was it's not of use to us. I wasn't the one evaluating it, so I can't tell for sure. But resource budgeting (memory, cpu, video memory (ps3)) is very debated thing in the console game development, and everyone wants more budget for his need (audio, animation, builders, ui, etc.) We also gave a try of an early flash middleware for Dreamcast for NHL2K2 (2000) - there were only 16mb of RAM, and flash was taking significant amount (no scaleform relation). We actually got some pretty good menus, and for a video sports game you need very detailed UI for rosters, trades, etc. We also got people to do it back then. But then the problem was during gameplay. While in the main menu we had the memory to pull it off with flash, during gameplay all memory was for vertex buffers, textures, game data, sound, animations, etc. We were thinking of swapping out game data (and reloading later) when the PAUSE button is hit (and the menu appears), so flash would have enough memory - but it turned out to have some bad latency - few to couple of seconds. Ideally PAUSE ON/OFF should take no time (otherwise it's annoying). Another thing was that we still had to render the rest of the HUD (scores, replays, etc.) not using flash - so we had to support TWO technologies for UI. Hence we turned our backs on it. It was nice, but not for our game.
- pagekalisedown 15y ago
  How does Scaleform compare to a junior programmer writing UI C++? Rolling your own UI has always been time consuming, and a breeding ground for bugs. Any middleware recommendation?
  - malkia 15y ago
    That's a tough question, to be answered in one post. I'm senior software engineer, and there are probably hundredth of thousands junior programmers that are better than me. I would go with the junior programmer - especially if he came on internship position, if nothing else he can integrate scaleform (you still need programmer there).
  - barrettcolin 15y ago
    RAD game tools, purveyors of lots of 'middleware' for games, have developed their own Flash playback engine called Iggy. I don't know how it rates, but its an option: http://www.radgametools.com/iggy.htm http://www.radgametools.com/iggy.htm
ja2ke 15y ago
Scaleform is great at enabling web- and interactive advertising-trained graphic designers to make video game UI art. It's not as great at being efficient, or truly integrated into your game.
forrestthewoods 15y ago
My favorite scaleform bug was when the game suddenly ran at less than 1fps due to a setting that led to the UI having more triangles than there were pixels on screen. Scaleform is good at a lot of things, but it's not even close to a "solved" problem :(
- pagekalisedown 15y ago
  Whatever happened to Anark? Was it any worse?

rdw 15y ago

Carmack is specifically talking about Scaleform, though! And he's not alone -- I know a few game developers who hate that thing with a passion because it's so slow that it's introduced noticeable performance problems in AAA games. Because he's clearly talking about ScaleForm/Flash specifically, though, I don't think that his comments can be correctly generalized to all "script interpreters". It's kind of the equivalent of buying a Maylong Android Tablet and going around saying that Android sucks or the tablet market is dead. You just happen to have picked the worst possible representative.

barrettcolin 15y ago
He may be referring to Scaleform (or another Flash GUI library; I don't think he specifies), but he's also talking about his experience with scripting in Doom 3- which I'm fairly sure didn't use Flash.

malkia 15y ago

You would also have to find flash-experienced people willing to work the way console game developers work. They actually might feel a little bit under appreciated for the stuff they do, and not feel very rewarding at work, especially when they have to constraint themselves with memory, cpu, gpu, i/o issues that might not be visible on the desktop. Also at some point certain integration between the engine and scaleform is needed, and you would have to lose a programmer there supporting it. We tried it, and the consensus was it's not of use to us. I wasn't the one evaluating it, so I can't tell for sure. But resource budgeting (memory, cpu, video memory (ps3)) is very debated thing in the console game development, and everyone wants more budget for his need (audio, animation, builders, ui, etc.) We also gave a try of an early flash middleware for Dreamcast for NHL2K2 (2000) - there were only 16mb of RAM, and flash was taking significant amount (no scaleform relation). We actually got some pretty good menus, and for a video sports game you need very detailed UI for rosters, trades, etc. We also got people to do it back then. But then the problem was during gameplay. While in the main menu we had the memory to pull it off with flash, during gameplay all memory was for vertex buffers, textures, game data, sound, animations, etc. We were thinking of swapping out game data (and reloading later) when the PAUSE button is hit (and the menu appears), so flash would have enough memory - but it turned out to have some bad latency - few to couple of seconds. Ideally PAUSE ON/OFF should take no time (otherwise it's annoying). Another thing was that we still had to render the rest of the HUD (scores, replays, etc.) not using flash - so we had to support TWO technologies for UI. Hence we turned our backs on it. It was nice, but not for our game.

pagekalisedown 15y ago
How does Scaleform compare to a junior programmer writing UI C++? Rolling your own UI has always been time consuming, and a breeding ground for bugs. Any middleware recommendation?
- malkia 15y ago
  That's a tough question, to be answered in one post. I'm senior software engineer, and there are probably hundredth of thousands junior programmers that are better than me. I would go with the junior programmer - especially if he came on internship position, if nothing else he can integrate scaleform (you still need programmer there).
- barrettcolin 15y ago
  RAD game tools, purveyors of lots of 'middleware' for games, have developed their own Flash playback engine called Iggy. I don't know how it rates, but its an option: http://www.radgametools.com/iggy.htm http://www.radgametools.com/iggy.htm

ja2ke 15y ago

Scaleform is great at enabling web- and interactive advertising-trained graphic designers to make video game UI art. It's not as great at being efficient, or truly integrated into your game.

forrestthewoods 15y ago

My favorite scaleform bug was when the game suddenly ran at less than 1fps due to a setting that led to the UI having more triangles than there were pixels on screen. Scaleform is good at a lot of things, but it's not even close to a "solved" problem :(

pagekalisedown 15y ago
Whatever happened to Anark? Was it any worse?