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Toyota really doesn't want to build a full electric car, do they?

credit_guy 5y ago
I don't know, this seems to me like a full electric car. Only the electricity comes from fuel cells rather than batteries. I personally don't have a problem with that.
- gremloni 5y ago
  Let’s be serious. No one is going to build out hydrogen based infrastructure when everything points to having electricity as the common energy source and then concentrating investment into multiple ways of creating and optimizing that source.
  - credit_guy 5y ago
    I don’t disagree with you at all. Still, this car is as fully electric as a battery powered electric vehicle.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
I thought this was more of a Japanese government initiative that Toyota is going along with?
alin23 5y ago
This video finally made me understand the “why” of hydrogen fuel cell cars: https://youtu.be/hghIckc7nrY https://youtu.be/hghIckc7nrY Like a lot of other people I didn’t know they are actually full electric and that they convert hydrogen to water to create the electricity, instead of having lithium-based batteries. They have the advantage of very fast refueling (because the fuel is liquid) but the disadvantage of not-yet-developed infrastructure (just like battery EVs were a few years ago) Three years ago, everyone in my home town would mock EV cars with comments like: What do I do if I have a 100km trip to do and the fueling station is 150km away? Do I start asking people around, “sir, please, can I borrow a car charger” like it’s a phone? Nowadays, a lot of people there are considering buying an EV as their next car and some even started saving money for that. Some want them because they are quiet, some because you don’t pay CO2 taxes on them. Some even like EVs because you can charge them at home (which is another disadvantage of hydrogen cars). Nevertheless, both battery and hydrogen EVs are improvements that we need in the future and we have to understand that there’s always a transition phase for new technologies.
- Seanambers 5y ago
  The problem is total system efficiency. The hydrogen fuel cell car requires 2-3 times more energy to drive the same distance, as the overall Well-to-Wheel efficiency is from 25-35%, electric cars can achieve an outstanding overall Well-to-Wheel efficiency of 70-90%. As you said, hydrogen cars are basically electric cars with more hardware. The only group who seems to want this is to be used is old car OEMS and politicians which we can assume have been lobbied for years to be for hydrogen.
- theluketaylor 5y ago
  H2 cars make no sense due to total system efficiency. I think agriculture, forestry, and long distance shipping could all make use of H2, but battery prices have dropped so far (and keep dropping) no one will pay the premium for fuel cells in passenger cars. > They have the advantage of very fast refueling It is not fast. H2 can't be pumped. It is held in a large tank and then super-pressurized in a smaller tank. When you connect your car the pressure is allowed to equalize between the tank and your car, transferring H2 in the process. Building up the extreme pressure takes time, so if a H2 station gets used heavily there is a 10-15 minute pause while the pressure rebuilds. It's not like getting gasoline at all. An auto journalist I follow had a nightmare experience with the new Mirai. Trip from LA to Santa Cruz, somewhere you'd expect to have the best H2 experience possible. Only one station on the I5 corridor and it was out of H2 on the way up. They had enough range to go to San Jose (out of the way) and get H2 there. Several stations broken, finally found one that worked. Waited in line behind 2 cars. Each took 10 minutes to fuel and then the station needed 15 minutes to re-pressurize, so it was nearly an hour to get H2. He was promised the I5 station would have H2 delivered before they headed back to LA so they set off. Arrived needing fuel and it hadn't come yet. Had to stay in a hotel overnight and truck didn't come till noon the next day. 5-6 car line up waiting to fuel. Between the time to pumpH2 into the station from the truck, fuel each car, and re-pressurize in between it was 3 hours before he was able to leave.

I don't know, this seems to me like a full electric car. Only the electricity comes from fuel cells rather than batteries. I personally don't have a problem with that.

gremloni 5y ago
Let’s be serious. No one is going to build out hydrogen based infrastructure when everything points to having electricity as the common energy source and then concentrating investment into multiple ways of creating and optimizing that source.
- credit_guy 5y ago
  I don’t disagree with you at all. Still, this car is as fully electric as a battery powered electric vehicle.

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

I thought this was more of a Japanese government initiative that Toyota is going along with?

alin23 5y ago

This video finally made me understand the “why” of hydrogen fuel cell cars: https://youtu.be/hghIckc7nrY https://youtu.be/hghIckc7nrY Like a lot of other people I didn’t know they are actually full electric and that they convert hydrogen to water to create the electricity, instead of having lithium-based batteries. They have the advantage of very fast refueling (because the fuel is liquid) but the disadvantage of not-yet-developed infrastructure (just like battery EVs were a few years ago) Three years ago, everyone in my home town would mock EV cars with comments like: What do I do if I have a 100km trip to do and the fueling station is 150km away? Do I start asking people around, “sir, please, can I borrow a car charger” like it’s a phone? Nowadays, a lot of people there are considering buying an EV as their next car and some even started saving money for that. Some want them because they are quiet, some because you don’t pay CO2 taxes on them. Some even like EVs because you can charge them at home (which is another disadvantage of hydrogen cars). Nevertheless, both battery and hydrogen EVs are improvements that we need in the future and we have to understand that there’s always a transition phase for new technologies.

Seanambers 5y ago
The problem is total system efficiency. The hydrogen fuel cell car requires 2-3 times more energy to drive the same distance, as the overall Well-to-Wheel efficiency is from 25-35%, electric cars can achieve an outstanding overall Well-to-Wheel efficiency of 70-90%. As you said, hydrogen cars are basically electric cars with more hardware. The only group who seems to want this is to be used is old car OEMS and politicians which we can assume have been lobbied for years to be for hydrogen.
theluketaylor 5y ago
H2 cars make no sense due to total system efficiency. I think agriculture, forestry, and long distance shipping could all make use of H2, but battery prices have dropped so far (and keep dropping) no one will pay the premium for fuel cells in passenger cars. > They have the advantage of very fast refueling It is not fast. H2 can't be pumped. It is held in a large tank and then super-pressurized in a smaller tank. When you connect your car the pressure is allowed to equalize between the tank and your car, transferring H2 in the process. Building up the extreme pressure takes time, so if a H2 station gets used heavily there is a 10-15 minute pause while the pressure rebuilds. It's not like getting gasoline at all. An auto journalist I follow had a nightmare experience with the new Mirai. Trip from LA to Santa Cruz, somewhere you'd expect to have the best H2 experience possible. Only one station on the I5 corridor and it was out of H2 on the way up. They had enough range to go to San Jose (out of the way) and get H2 there. Several stations broken, finally found one that worked. Waited in line behind 2 cars. Each took 10 minutes to fuel and then the station needed 15 minutes to re-pressurize, so it was nearly an hour to get H2. He was promised the I5 station would have H2 delivered before they headed back to LA so they set off. Arrived needing fuel and it hadn't come yet. Had to stay in a hotel overnight and truck didn't come till noon the next day. 5-6 car line up waiting to fuel. Between the time to pumpH2 into the station from the truck, fuel each car, and re-pressurize in between it was 3 hours before he was able to leave.