6 ms·

Libre Endowment Fund: Sustainable Development of Free Software

116 points by graderjs 5y ago

indymike 5y ago
Please, please fix the text justification on this site. It is unreadable on mobile.
- smetsjp 5y ago
  I just checked on my mobile and it was OK. Can you send a screenshot to me (jp@smets.com) so that we can improve?
  - indymike 5y ago
    Email sent.
fanpx 5y ago
"Members are required to have an PhD in Mathematics or Computer Science related disciplines as well as being authors of FLOSS/Free Software." First of all, it is "a PhD", secondly, this looks like the typical scientific ecosystem power grab that we have seen multiple times in the US. In the Python scientific space, people doing actual work are exploited ruthlessly.
- smetsjp 5y ago
  There is a presentation at FOSDEM 2021 about FDL: https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/event/fosstaxbreak/ https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/event/fosstaxbreak/ Title: Give open source a (tax) break Cash that gets into FDL/LEF is then spent to sponsor existing FLOSS projects or to acquire intellectual property rights of existing works and change their license to FLOSS. Case 1: https://bossanova.uk/jspreadsheet/v4/ https://bossanova.uk/jspreadsheet/v4/ got financed partly by FDL/LEF Case 2: the radio hardware of the Open Radio Station (a 4G/5G vRAN base station based on Amarisoft stack and SlapOS) is in the process of being acquired and released as open source hardware. See https://shop.rapid.space/product_module/241/Resource_viewAsShop?variation=product_module/241/1 https://shop.rapid.space/product_module/241/Resource_viewAsS... The requirement for PhD is here to ensure that all projects that are financed by FDL/LEF have some kind of general interest or innovation, something which is useful to comply with Tax Law
  - solarkraft 5y ago
    > ensure that all projects that are financed by FDL/LEF have some kind of general interest or innovation How does it ensure that?
    - fermigier 5y ago
      The selection process is described in details here: https://www.fdl-lef.org/process/ https://www.fdl-lef.org/process/ (Disclaimer: I'm one of the members of the selection committee. Ask me if you need more clarification).
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - indymike 5y ago
    So only a PhD can innovate?
    - radicalbyte 5y ago
      Well, they have no hope of getting tenure (that budget is needed for administration), so it's good that PhD have another option where they can avoid doing any real work* ;) * Giving people whose talent is thinking the chance to do that is a good idea. Better than losing that talent to management.
    - fermigier 5y ago
      As stated in my previous comment, the PhD requirement is for sitting on the selection committee only.
      - indymike 5y ago
        Is only a PhD is capable of recognizing libre software deserving of support?
- cpach 5y ago
  That’s an … interesting requirement. In France there is, AFAIK, an exaggerated emphasis on the importance of holding a PhD title. IMHO I can’t really see the strong connection between acquiring an PhD and the ability to successfully lead open source projects.
  - fermigier 5y ago
    As stated on the web site: "In order to be eligible to act on the committee, members are required to have an PhD in Mathematics or Computer Science related disciplines as well as being authors of FLOSS/Free Software. We are currently looking for new committee members." -> The PhD requirement is for sitting on the selection committee only.
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      > The PhD requirement is for sitting on the selection committee only. Yeah... but why? What attribute do you think is unique to people with PhDs?
      - smetsjp 5y ago
        Holders of a PhD are considered as "capable of assessing the state of the art" by Tax authorities. Having PhDs in the committee which decides of grants thus reduces to legal risk of later seing tax cuts being cancelled by Tax authorities. Regarding projects which receive a grant, holding a PhD does not matter.
      - fermigier 5y ago
        I don't believe that people with PhDs have "unique attributes". There are, specially in the field of computing science, examples of exceptionally gifted and influential researchers without PhDs (e.g. Denis Ritchie, Simon Peyton-Jones...). What a Phd recognizes, and is relevant to the project at hand, is the ability "to produce original research that expands the boundaries of knowledge". (Per Wikipedia: "Because it is an earned research degree, those studying for a PhD are required to produce original research that expands the boundaries of knowledge, normally in the form of a thesis or dissertation, and defend their work against experts in the field. The completion of a PhD is often a requirement for employment as [...] a scientist in many fields.")
- junon 5y ago
  I don't see this requirement anywhere, can you point me to it?
- cycomanic 5y ago
  Reading the website this is for committee members only (it has nothing to do with if a project is eligible). This seems to largely be a requirement for tax reasons. As a side note, I find it unfortunate that often when things like this get posted, e.g. a foundation who supports free-software in this case, the first posts are not "this is a great thing", but instead someone goes through the website until they find something they disagree with and creates a negative debate and misinformation (several people here already understood the sentence to mean that projects led by non-PhDs can't apply).
  - shadowfox 5y ago
    It is the "law of the topmost comment" [1] in action [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26357974 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26357974
  - follower 5y ago
    It depends on one's perspective, I guess. An alternative perspective is that the original commenter is doing the authors a favour by highlighting that their writing is currently easily misinterpreted and would benefit from revision.
- diskzero 5y ago
  This seems to be an unfortunate manifestation of French tax law and culture. This comes off as offensive to those of us who came up through, what we may believe, the more egalitarian, Silicon Valley entrepreneurship model. A PhD may actually be seen as a liability! It also is grating, as many open source coders and maintainers choose to operate outside of both the academic and Silicon Valley cultures. Why would they want a committee of academics guiding and funding their projects? All this being said, perhaps there will be positive outcomes from this fund.
- andrewl 5y ago
  Regarding the “an PhD” note, I’m finding other phrasing that makes me think the writers were not native English speakers. It’s a French organization after all, so I would expect a few errors in their English. They're not significant.
jpgvm 5y ago
Given the contents of this https://www.fdl-lef.org/FDL-Press.Relase.Publication.A.European.Cloud.Without.European.Software.Providers https://www.fdl-lef.org/FDL-Press.Relase.Publication.A.Europ... I don't think you can really consider this as supporting FLOSS. They legit called Openstack "foreign' software.
- cpach 5y ago
  Just wow.
- cycomanic 5y ago
  The Andromeda project was about creating a local alternative to the largely US-dominated cloud space. Given that, the argument that it is counterproductive to push a project which is dominated by US and non-european companies (look at the foundation members) and where most development expertise is outside of Europe, does have some merit no?
  - JoshTriplett 5y ago
    Open Source can be hosted anywhere, as many people who have written software later hosted as a cloud service by Amazon have discovered. I don't think there's any merit to rejecting an Open Source project on the basis of where its primary developers are located.
    - goodpoint 5y ago
      > I don't think there's any merit to rejecting an Open Source project on the basis of where its primary developers are located. Yet, there is plenty of reason to fund or reject projects based on who benefits from it. Which depends on who decides priorities and goals. Using EU taxpayer money to fund projects that benefit mostly non-EU industrial groups that are competing against EU companies is self defeating. Software does not exist in a vacuum. It's not some purely theoretical exercise. Like with any other technology, there can be very real economical, social or political ramifications.
thecodrr 5y ago
The process looks quite complicated and time consuming. I wonder how many FOSS projects will enroll. The criteria is alright but doesn't mention anything about library maintainers. In the end, it's money so I get why it has to be so long form and time consuming but I think a lot of really good projects will either not take the time to enroll or give up in the middle. In my opinion, such a fund should be set up for both big projects with orgs behind them and small projects with only a few people. Otherwise, it doesn't actually benefit or encourage anyone. Of course, the amount of funding could be relative to the size and impact but everyone should be encouraged to enroll. That way OSS can become a truly sustainable system.
- smetsjp 5y ago
  The process mimics other grants which are known aa compliant with Tax Law. This is a way to increase juridical safety for donators.
scns 5y ago
Readability increases when i choose the Desktop website in Bromite. Writes a mental not to send a PR with a fix.
nomdep 5y ago
“ Aside from supporting Free Software solutions, the FDL also aims to increase the visibility of European Free Software publishers and their importance in terms of innovation and employment as well as their contribution to a possible European technological sovereignty.” So is for European projects only?
goodpoint 5y ago
The tax exemption applicable only to individuals and companies based in france.

116 points by graderjs 5y ago

indymike 5y ago

Please, please fix the text justification on this site. It is unreadable on mobile.

smetsjp 5y ago
I just checked on my mobile and it was OK. Can you send a screenshot to me (jp@smets.com) so that we can improve?
- indymike 5y ago
  Email sent.

fanpx 5y ago

"Members are required to have an PhD in Mathematics or Computer Science related disciplines as well as being authors of FLOSS/Free Software." First of all, it is "a PhD", secondly, this looks like the typical scientific ecosystem power grab that we have seen multiple times in the US. In the Python scientific space, people doing actual work are exploited ruthlessly.

smetsjp 5y ago
There is a presentation at FOSDEM 2021 about FDL: https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/event/fosstaxbreak/ https://fosdem.org/2021/schedule/event/fosstaxbreak/ Title: Give open source a (tax) break Cash that gets into FDL/LEF is then spent to sponsor existing FLOSS projects or to acquire intellectual property rights of existing works and change their license to FLOSS. Case 1: https://bossanova.uk/jspreadsheet/v4/ https://bossanova.uk/jspreadsheet/v4/ got financed partly by FDL/LEF Case 2: the radio hardware of the Open Radio Station (a 4G/5G vRAN base station based on Amarisoft stack and SlapOS) is in the process of being acquired and released as open source hardware. See https://shop.rapid.space/product_module/241/Resource_viewAsShop?variation=product_module/241/1 https://shop.rapid.space/product_module/241/Resource_viewAsS... The requirement for PhD is here to ensure that all projects that are financed by FDL/LEF have some kind of general interest or innovation, something which is useful to comply with Tax Law
- solarkraft 5y ago
  > ensure that all projects that are financed by FDL/LEF have some kind of general interest or innovation How does it ensure that?
  - fermigier 5y ago
    The selection process is described in details here: https://www.fdl-lef.org/process/ https://www.fdl-lef.org/process/ (Disclaimer: I'm one of the members of the selection committee. Ask me if you need more clarification).
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- indymike 5y ago
  So only a PhD can innovate?
  - radicalbyte 5y ago
    Well, they have no hope of getting tenure (that budget is needed for administration), so it's good that PhD have another option where they can avoid doing any real work* ;) * Giving people whose talent is thinking the chance to do that is a good idea. Better than losing that talent to management.
  - fermigier 5y ago
    As stated in my previous comment, the PhD requirement is for sitting on the selection committee only.
    - indymike 5y ago
      Is only a PhD is capable of recognizing libre software deserving of support?
cpach 5y ago
That’s an … interesting requirement. In France there is, AFAIK, an exaggerated emphasis on the importance of holding a PhD title. IMHO I can’t really see the strong connection between acquiring an PhD and the ability to successfully lead open source projects.
- fermigier 5y ago
  As stated on the web site: "In order to be eligible to act on the committee, members are required to have an PhD in Mathematics or Computer Science related disciplines as well as being authors of FLOSS/Free Software. We are currently looking for new committee members." -> The PhD requirement is for sitting on the selection committee only.
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > The PhD requirement is for sitting on the selection committee only. Yeah... but why? What attribute do you think is unique to people with PhDs?
    - smetsjp 5y ago
      Holders of a PhD are considered as "capable of assessing the state of the art" by Tax authorities. Having PhDs in the committee which decides of grants thus reduces to legal risk of later seing tax cuts being cancelled by Tax authorities. Regarding projects which receive a grant, holding a PhD does not matter.
    - fermigier 5y ago
      I don't believe that people with PhDs have "unique attributes". There are, specially in the field of computing science, examples of exceptionally gifted and influential researchers without PhDs (e.g. Denis Ritchie, Simon Peyton-Jones...). What a Phd recognizes, and is relevant to the project at hand, is the ability "to produce original research that expands the boundaries of knowledge". (Per Wikipedia: "Because it is an earned research degree, those studying for a PhD are required to produce original research that expands the boundaries of knowledge, normally in the form of a thesis or dissertation, and defend their work against experts in the field. The completion of a PhD is often a requirement for employment as [...] a scientist in many fields.")
junon 5y ago
I don't see this requirement anywhere, can you point me to it?
cycomanic 5y ago
Reading the website this is for committee members only (it has nothing to do with if a project is eligible). This seems to largely be a requirement for tax reasons. As a side note, I find it unfortunate that often when things like this get posted, e.g. a foundation who supports free-software in this case, the first posts are not "this is a great thing", but instead someone goes through the website until they find something they disagree with and creates a negative debate and misinformation (several people here already understood the sentence to mean that projects led by non-PhDs can't apply).
- shadowfox 5y ago
  It is the "law of the topmost comment" [1] in action [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26357974 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26357974
- follower 5y ago
  It depends on one's perspective, I guess. An alternative perspective is that the original commenter is doing the authors a favour by highlighting that their writing is currently easily misinterpreted and would benefit from revision.
diskzero 5y ago
This seems to be an unfortunate manifestation of French tax law and culture. This comes off as offensive to those of us who came up through, what we may believe, the more egalitarian, Silicon Valley entrepreneurship model. A PhD may actually be seen as a liability! It also is grating, as many open source coders and maintainers choose to operate outside of both the academic and Silicon Valley cultures. Why would they want a committee of academics guiding and funding their projects? All this being said, perhaps there will be positive outcomes from this fund.
andrewl 5y ago
Regarding the “an PhD” note, I’m finding other phrasing that makes me think the writers were not native English speakers. It’s a French organization after all, so I would expect a few errors in their English. They're not significant.

jpgvm 5y ago

Given the contents of this https://www.fdl-lef.org/FDL-Press.Relase.Publication.A.European.Cloud.Without.European.Software.Providers https://www.fdl-lef.org/FDL-Press.Relase.Publication.A.Europ... I don't think you can really consider this as supporting FLOSS. They legit called Openstack "foreign' software.

cpach 5y ago
Just wow.
cycomanic 5y ago
The Andromeda project was about creating a local alternative to the largely US-dominated cloud space. Given that, the argument that it is counterproductive to push a project which is dominated by US and non-european companies (look at the foundation members) and where most development expertise is outside of Europe, does have some merit no?
- JoshTriplett 5y ago
  Open Source can be hosted anywhere, as many people who have written software later hosted as a cloud service by Amazon have discovered. I don't think there's any merit to rejecting an Open Source project on the basis of where its primary developers are located.
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    > I don't think there's any merit to rejecting an Open Source project on the basis of where its primary developers are located. Yet, there is plenty of reason to fund or reject projects based on who benefits from it. Which depends on who decides priorities and goals. Using EU taxpayer money to fund projects that benefit mostly non-EU industrial groups that are competing against EU companies is self defeating. Software does not exist in a vacuum. It's not some purely theoretical exercise. Like with any other technology, there can be very real economical, social or political ramifications.

thecodrr 5y ago

The process looks quite complicated and time consuming. I wonder how many FOSS projects will enroll. The criteria is alright but doesn't mention anything about library maintainers. In the end, it's money so I get why it has to be so long form and time consuming but I think a lot of really good projects will either not take the time to enroll or give up in the middle. In my opinion, such a fund should be set up for both big projects with orgs behind them and small projects with only a few people. Otherwise, it doesn't actually benefit or encourage anyone. Of course, the amount of funding could be relative to the size and impact but everyone should be encouraged to enroll. That way OSS can become a truly sustainable system.

smetsjp 5y ago
The process mimics other grants which are known aa compliant with Tax Law. This is a way to increase juridical safety for donators.

scns 5y ago

Readability increases when i choose the Desktop website in Bromite. Writes a mental not to send a PR with a fix.

nomdep 5y ago

“ Aside from supporting Free Software solutions, the FDL also aims to increase the visibility of European Free Software publishers and their importance in terms of innovation and employment as well as their contribution to a possible European technological sovereignty.” So is for European projects only?

goodpoint 5y ago

The tax exemption applicable only to individuals and companies based in france.