5 ms·

Funny, I live in Austria and I wish to emigrate to the US. I consider Europe, and Austria in particular a living nightmare.

by 4ad 5y ago

alangibson 5y ago
Why? It could be it just doesn't suit your personality. If you a 'rise and grind' type of person, I can see it being hell.
- 4ad 5y ago
  Well I could enumerate all the material things that are worse in Europe and better in the US (I have lived in the US enough time to have an informed opinion), but that would get old, and in the end it would miss the point, as I could just as well enumerate countless things which are better in Europe compared to US. The real issue (which causes all the above differences anyway) is cultural. What matters is not comparing things, but comparing people, their attitude, principles, and way of life. For me, Europe is an socialist dystopia which punishes individualism, risk-taking, private businesses, and where people don't have a passion for much, no hobbies, and no aspirations. For any particular thing that people do, for example what hobbies they might have, but this could be extended to almost anything, what car do they drive, etc, anything that can be analyzed statistically you will find that the distribution for people in the US is far wider than the distribution for people in the EU. Whatever it is that interests you and is outside the median, you will find that there are people in the US who share your interests, but you will likely won't find the same to be true in europe. The distribution of anything in europe is narrower. Let me give you a silly example. On average, americans eat far worse cheese then europeans, but if cheese is your thing you will easily (!!) find better cheese in the US compared to the best cheese I can find here in Europe. But that's not all, if you explain this to an average american who isn't into cheese, they will understand that cheese is your thing, just like they have their own peculiar things they are into. But I will not be able to explain the same thing to an european, all I would get is "what's wrong with our cheese?" and "you are stupid because our cheese is great". This is not a thought experiment. I have done this exact experiment with cheese with many americans and many europeans. As silly as the example is, it illustrates the point that europeans simply cannot accept that you might care about things they don't care about while americans understand this idea very well, even if they don't understand the thing. Let's take another example, general aviation. It's an expensive and rare hobby even in the US, but even middle-class people can partake in it, and they do, it's a thing with communities associated with it. It's not a thing here in europe. It's extraordinarily rare, and it's extraordinarily expensive -- not relative to european incomes, but in absolute terms -- GA is fantastically more expensive in europe compared to the US, so you have to be made out of money, and if you do it at all, it's not a community thing. Just search youtube for anything, any kind of activity that you are interested in, and you will find that the majority of videos are produced by americans. I posit this is not a coincidence. Someone might claim that's because all these activities cost money, and it's not simply the fact that europeans are not interested in these things, but rather that they don't have enough money to do them. And therein lies the problem. The reason europeans don't have money is because doing business here is a terrible endeavour stiffed at every step of the way. People don't really start businesess, and starting a businesses is shed in a negative light societally. People see their bosses as their enemy (from which they require mandatory (!!) union participation to protect yourself from). Mind you, not any particular boss they might have, which might be terrible as a person, but the whole concept of "us workers" vs. "they the rich people". Of course, your direct manager is very unlikely to be rich, but in most people's minds the bosses are "part of the oppresing class" and they are the enemy that the state must protect themselves from. The idea that you might even become a boss one day, say by starting a business is ideologically rejected. The regular people are the good people and they don't join the enemy by becoming the oppresor. I could go on and on, but the gist of it is that I have trouble finding people here in europe who I share values with, but I have no such trouble in the US.
  - jseban 5y ago
    > For me, Europe is an socialist dystopia which punishes individualism, risk-taking, private businesses, and where people don't have a passion for much, no hobbies, and no aspirations. I'm from the EU and I totally agree with you, I'm always having trouble fitting in because you are required to be so passive. I need to have some sort of aspiration for every day, that's what gives me purpose and meaning, and in the end happiness. And I get really depressed and demotivated when I'm forced to stagnate from idleness. I guess you can always argue that it's a matter of preference, if you are the type of person that wants to have a safe and secure life, knowing that you're cared for in every day, and knowing that tomorrow will be identical to today. Or if you're the type of person that thrives on hopes and dreams and need to be motivated and stimulated by some kind of vision. But I'm also having a hard time seeing how Europe will stay competitive and innovative with such a culture, even if it can be argued to be "morally superior".
    - alangibson 5y ago
      Europe is crap for entrepreneurs to be sure. However, Europe is high up on the value chain for many industries that actually require a "move slow and don't break things" mentality. Aerospace, etc.
    - orwin 5y ago
      > I need to have some sort of aspiration for every day, that's what gives me purpose and meaning, and in the end happiness. And I get really depressed and demotivated when I'm forced to stagnate from idleness. In 2015, first year with a good salary, i started learning a new hobby every year. River kayak, sea kayak, windsurf, kitesurf, skiing, paragliding (did not learn anything in 2020 coz covid). You are absolutelly not required to be passive. I'm not. I went hiking three weeks ago, the weather over the Pyrenneans and Alps was shit, so we decided to continue to Spain. We biked through the Madrenas, then stopped at a lake (i dont' remember which one, i think it was west of Teruel) where we decided to do a water hike for a day, hiked around in a natural park near Cuenca then decided to go south and visit the Alhambra, then going north while hugging the Eastern coast of spain. Long story short, weather was starting to get messy when we got around Valencia, so we crossed spain again to get back to France through Vallaloid/Vitoria. 11 days of mostly hiking and canyoning unsupervised, i even found a non-managed river where we tried to do some hydrospeed (without the half-boat). Next year i'll learn rock-climbing, because we had some missed opportunities there, but it was fun and i most definitely will take unpaid leave again in spring to do the same when the rivers are more interesting. Just find stuff you like to do, and people you like to do the stuff with. Also, it will give you conversation subjects and help you discover people like-minded. My new manager seems to be as fond as me of canyoning and hiking, so i'll probably invite her and her friends next time around.
PKop 5y ago
>Austria in particular a living nightmare. Please elaborate, that is quite a statement
- 4ad 5y ago
  See my parallel reply to alangibson.
mdp2021 5y ago
So do you confirm the availability of "horror stories", as mentioned? Kindly share why you consider Austria a nightmare. I got mixed signals from the place. While some people are extremely friendly, I also perceived quite a defensive atmosphere. Something solid on the surface but struggling below it, like a defence of daily routine - not really lively or happy. But it could also depend on the region, I guess.
- alangibson 5y ago
  I don't disagree with the vibes you picked up on. I get that same feeling in most cold weather counties though. Maybe Nietzsche was right about that. I wouldn't say people are overtly happy at all. Something like 'jolly on occasion' is a better fit. They kind of store it up for parties and festivals. This isn't a negative for me though. It's rather have honesty that the sickly sweet fake nice you get in the US. At least where I live, people like to complain a lot. Idle grousing is sort of a pass time. Honestly I'm not sure why. Austria was dirt ass poor within living memory. Anyone with gray hair probably had a couple pair of d lederhosen for their whole childhood. Plus Hitler was Austrian. The ruling political party in my state was started by a literal Nazi. Sexual abuse in the Catholic church was (is ?) rampant. That kind history has to weigh on a society.
  - drstewart 5y ago
    >It's rather have honesty that the sickly sweet fake nice you get in the US. Or maybe people are genuinely nice in the US and there's just an subconscious anxiety and depression in Austria? >At least where I live, people like to complain a lot. Idle grousing is sort of a pass time. Honestly I'm not sure why. Perhaps a subconscious anxiety and depression? Seems like Austria is a failing society to be honest.
    - alangibson 5y ago
      Are you OK bro/ma'am?
  - 4ad 5y ago
    Although I complained about europeans in my other comment, I could as well complain about americans, and the fake american smile would be at the top of my list.

Funny, I live in Austria and I wish to emigrate to the US. I consider Europe, and Austria in particular a living nightmare.

by 4ad 5y ago

Funny, I live in Austria and I wish to emigrate to the US. I consider Europe, and Austria in particular a living nightmare.

alangibson 5y ago

Why? It could be it just doesn't suit your personality. If you a 'rise and grind' type of person, I can see it being hell.

4ad 5y ago
Well I could enumerate all the material things that are worse in Europe and better in the US (I have lived in the US enough time to have an informed opinion), but that would get old, and in the end it would miss the point, as I could just as well enumerate countless things which are better in Europe compared to US. The real issue (which causes all the above differences anyway) is cultural. What matters is not comparing things, but comparing people, their attitude, principles, and way of life. For me, Europe is an socialist dystopia which punishes individualism, risk-taking, private businesses, and where people don't have a passion for much, no hobbies, and no aspirations. For any particular thing that people do, for example what hobbies they might have, but this could be extended to almost anything, what car do they drive, etc, anything that can be analyzed statistically you will find that the distribution for people in the US is far wider than the distribution for people in the EU. Whatever it is that interests you and is outside the median, you will find that there are people in the US who share your interests, but you will likely won't find the same to be true in europe. The distribution of anything in europe is narrower. Let me give you a silly example. On average, americans eat far worse cheese then europeans, but if cheese is your thing you will easily (!!) find better cheese in the US compared to the best cheese I can find here in Europe. But that's not all, if you explain this to an average american who isn't into cheese, they will understand that cheese is your thing, just like they have their own peculiar things they are into. But I will not be able to explain the same thing to an european, all I would get is "what's wrong with our cheese?" and "you are stupid because our cheese is great". This is not a thought experiment. I have done this exact experiment with cheese with many americans and many europeans. As silly as the example is, it illustrates the point that europeans simply cannot accept that you might care about things they don't care about while americans understand this idea very well, even if they don't understand the thing. Let's take another example, general aviation. It's an expensive and rare hobby even in the US, but even middle-class people can partake in it, and they do, it's a thing with communities associated with it. It's not a thing here in europe. It's extraordinarily rare, and it's extraordinarily expensive -- not relative to european incomes, but in absolute terms -- GA is fantastically more expensive in europe compared to the US, so you have to be made out of money, and if you do it at all, it's not a community thing. Just search youtube for anything, any kind of activity that you are interested in, and you will find that the majority of videos are produced by americans. I posit this is not a coincidence. Someone might claim that's because all these activities cost money, and it's not simply the fact that europeans are not interested in these things, but rather that they don't have enough money to do them. And therein lies the problem. The reason europeans don't have money is because doing business here is a terrible endeavour stiffed at every step of the way. People don't really start businesess, and starting a businesses is shed in a negative light societally. People see their bosses as their enemy (from which they require mandatory (!!) union participation to protect yourself from). Mind you, not any particular boss they might have, which might be terrible as a person, but the whole concept of "us workers" vs. "they the rich people". Of course, your direct manager is very unlikely to be rich, but in most people's minds the bosses are "part of the oppresing class" and they are the enemy that the state must protect themselves from. The idea that you might even become a boss one day, say by starting a business is ideologically rejected. The regular people are the good people and they don't join the enemy by becoming the oppresor. I could go on and on, but the gist of it is that I have trouble finding people here in europe who I share values with, but I have no such trouble in the US.
- jseban 5y ago
  > For me, Europe is an socialist dystopia which punishes individualism, risk-taking, private businesses, and where people don't have a passion for much, no hobbies, and no aspirations. I'm from the EU and I totally agree with you, I'm always having trouble fitting in because you are required to be so passive. I need to have some sort of aspiration for every day, that's what gives me purpose and meaning, and in the end happiness. And I get really depressed and demotivated when I'm forced to stagnate from idleness. I guess you can always argue that it's a matter of preference, if you are the type of person that wants to have a safe and secure life, knowing that you're cared for in every day, and knowing that tomorrow will be identical to today. Or if you're the type of person that thrives on hopes and dreams and need to be motivated and stimulated by some kind of vision. But I'm also having a hard time seeing how Europe will stay competitive and innovative with such a culture, even if it can be argued to be "morally superior".
  - alangibson 5y ago
    Europe is crap for entrepreneurs to be sure. However, Europe is high up on the value chain for many industries that actually require a "move slow and don't break things" mentality. Aerospace, etc.
  - orwin 5y ago
    > I need to have some sort of aspiration for every day, that's what gives me purpose and meaning, and in the end happiness. And I get really depressed and demotivated when I'm forced to stagnate from idleness. In 2015, first year with a good salary, i started learning a new hobby every year. River kayak, sea kayak, windsurf, kitesurf, skiing, paragliding (did not learn anything in 2020 coz covid). You are absolutelly not required to be passive. I'm not. I went hiking three weeks ago, the weather over the Pyrenneans and Alps was shit, so we decided to continue to Spain. We biked through the Madrenas, then stopped at a lake (i dont' remember which one, i think it was west of Teruel) where we decided to do a water hike for a day, hiked around in a natural park near Cuenca then decided to go south and visit the Alhambra, then going north while hugging the Eastern coast of spain. Long story short, weather was starting to get messy when we got around Valencia, so we crossed spain again to get back to France through Vallaloid/Vitoria. 11 days of mostly hiking and canyoning unsupervised, i even found a non-managed river where we tried to do some hydrospeed (without the half-boat). Next year i'll learn rock-climbing, because we had some missed opportunities there, but it was fun and i most definitely will take unpaid leave again in spring to do the same when the rivers are more interesting. Just find stuff you like to do, and people you like to do the stuff with. Also, it will give you conversation subjects and help you discover people like-minded. My new manager seems to be as fond as me of canyoning and hiking, so i'll probably invite her and her friends next time around.

PKop 5y ago

>Austria in particular a living nightmare. Please elaborate, that is quite a statement

4ad 5y ago
See my parallel reply to alangibson.

mdp2021 5y ago

So do you confirm the availability of "horror stories", as mentioned? Kindly share why you consider Austria a nightmare. I got mixed signals from the place. While some people are extremely friendly, I also perceived quite a defensive atmosphere. Something solid on the surface but struggling below it, like a defence of daily routine - not really lively or happy. But it could also depend on the region, I guess.

alangibson 5y ago
I don't disagree with the vibes you picked up on. I get that same feeling in most cold weather counties though. Maybe Nietzsche was right about that. I wouldn't say people are overtly happy at all. Something like 'jolly on occasion' is a better fit. They kind of store it up for parties and festivals. This isn't a negative for me though. It's rather have honesty that the sickly sweet fake nice you get in the US. At least where I live, people like to complain a lot. Idle grousing is sort of a pass time. Honestly I'm not sure why. Austria was dirt ass poor within living memory. Anyone with gray hair probably had a couple pair of d lederhosen for their whole childhood. Plus Hitler was Austrian. The ruling political party in my state was started by a literal Nazi. Sexual abuse in the Catholic church was (is ?) rampant. That kind history has to weigh on a society.
- drstewart 5y ago
  >It's rather have honesty that the sickly sweet fake nice you get in the US. Or maybe people are genuinely nice in the US and there's just an subconscious anxiety and depression in Austria? >At least where I live, people like to complain a lot. Idle grousing is sort of a pass time. Honestly I'm not sure why. Perhaps a subconscious anxiety and depression? Seems like Austria is a failing society to be honest.
  - alangibson 5y ago
    Are you OK bro/ma'am?
- 4ad 5y ago
  Although I complained about europeans in my other comment, I could as well complain about americans, and the fake american smile would be at the top of my list.